в vs. на Украине

[wordchick.livejournal.com]

My first Russian teacher was a wonderful woman, as well as being an incredible St. Petersburg snob. She was very particular about our language and pronunciation and emphasized the fact that Ukraine, alone of non-island countries, takes на. I have subsequently lived in Ukraine and discovered that these days, Ukrainians use на and в interchangeably, though tending to use в more often. My most recent Russian teacher (a Ukrainian) told me that using на is out of date. like saying the Ukraine.

However, on Russian television, everyday people often say на. What is the general Russian opinion? The learned, linguistic opinion? Are they the same? Thanks in advance.

Comments

general Russian Opinion

[zolly.livejournal.com]

Well, Russians really use mostly на. But Ukrainians emphasize one should say в and are mostly pissed off if they hear на Украине and even sometimes make scandal out of it in some blogs or discussion boards. I started saying в Украине - not difficult for me, but if they're so keen about it.. why not :)

[ienifer.livejournal.com]

You can say and на and в. And snobs now prefer to use "там"...

[pzrk.livejournal.com]

The rule is simple: when referring to a geographical area, use "на" (на Сахалине, на Кавказе); when referring to a country, use "в" (в России), with "island-rule" applied.
When the Ukraine was a part of Russian empire and then a part of USSR, it was a geographical area. Now it is a country.

[http://users.livejournal.com/antiquer_/]

I do not think that "на" was used just because Ukraine was a part of USSR. Latvia also was a part of it, but you never say "на Латвии".

[wordchick.livejournal.com]

Was Belarus not ever part of the Russian Empire? Because I've never heard на Беларусии.

Re: general Russian Opinion

[slovami.livejournal.com]

And then there are Russians who get correspondingly pissed off at the Ukrainians' pissiness and make a big deal out of using на (or Russians like your first teacher who feel very beholden to the "literary norm" and make a big deal about using на because of that). To me it seems like people can read your choice of preposition as a political statement no matter what you say. But I'm not Russian, so I could be totally wrong.

[karkadil.livejournal.com]

This question was answered a lot of times by Service of Russian Language. You can find answers here
http://gramota.ru/spravka/buro/search_answer/?s=%E2+%F3%EA%F0%E0%E8%ED%E5

"На Украине" is correct. And speaking about zolly's answer that Ukrainians prefer to say "в"... It is not true :) (I am Ukrainian for example). It is not Ukrainians who decide what is correct in Russian and what is not :)

[ephraim-oakes.livejournal.com]

isn't that because of the etymology of "Ukraine" though?

[karkadil.livejournal.com]

Have you ever heard about exceptions? Ukraine is an exception in this rule (see my comment below)

[ephraim-oakes.livejournal.com]

we had it emphasized that в Украине was the PC thing to say, but to expect that many people and/or pieces of writing will use на.

[http://users.livejournal.com/antiquer_/]

Not on topic, but still a correction. You should either say "в БелАрусИ" or "в БелОруссИИ". The latter is an older form, Belarus opts for the first one, but still both are used.

[lyovchik.livejournal.com]

The thing is that correct Russian spelling is "на Украине", but correct Ukrainian spelling is "в Україні". So there are political motives of forcing Russian-speaking people in Ukraine to use the last case in Russian too.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Oh gosh... not THAT!! it's a Holy War Question! You don't understand what you ignite :)

Re: general Russian Opinion

[thespinningone.livejournal.com]

Exactly.
For example, I belong to those who love to stick to the literary norm - because "на Украине" really is one!
Saying "в Украине" (which is, by the way, becoming more and more popular on TV) is either a sign of this strange Ukranian nationalism and self-pride (as long as their inexplicable desire to change our language) - or that of "political correctness".

[iamphet.livejournal.com]

But we can enjoy reading old discussion in new language ;)

[earth-blue.livejournal.com]

"На" is correct. Iw was correct and it will be correct)
"В" - that's just a game of politics.

My literate ukrainian friends had rebuked me for illiteracy, when I used "на" by speeking.

[earth-blue.livejournal.com]

)))

[alex-mashin.livejournal.com]

Як помру, то поховайте в Украине милой?

[cherniavska.livejournal.com]

на is a literary norm in Russian for now. End of the discussion:))Literary norms do change over time, this one has not changed yet.

[lyovchik.livejournal.com]

Exactly. But it's not Russian ;)

[kunaifusu.livejournal.com]

Si comrade, в Кубе we says just like that! Even our comrades на Крыме agree!

[kunaifusu.livejournal.com]

It's similar to a running joke in tv/movies where a French character says "Fruhnce" and insists that others pronounce it like that. "В" might be correct in Ukrainian but it is not in Russian.

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

Indeed, and the russian name for the capital of Ukraine is Киев, not Кыйив or something.

[haallan.livejournal.com]

"на" is correct. that's literary norm of Russian language, and if it changes someday, you would see it in vocabularies :)

as of persons who want to be politically correct - that's the situation where you can not be both "unoffensive" to radical Ukrainians and true to Russian language rules. you should choose one thing or another.

[la-dy-ashley.livejournal.com]

"В Украине" sounds awful to me. They're trying to introduce a Ukrainian construction, but Russian's a different language. I don't know how many Ukranians use "на" or "В", but 90% of Russians use the first.

I don't think it can be a PC thing; after all, we have на Кубе, as someone above pointed out, which simply cannot have any political or territorial implications. Grammar is a tricky thing with little logic:)

[dekarmi.livejournal.com]

I think this is a discussion like that about the correct spelling of the word colour / color. "Colour' is correct in the British version of English and "color" is correct in the American one. So, there is not much sense in argueing heatedly about this matter. We just can recognize the existance of a separate, Ukrainian version of the Russian language, which is not subject to the authority of Russia's linguistic regulatory bodies.
Besides, both "на" and "в" applied to Ukraine can be found in the Russian literature:

"Мазепы враг, наездник пылкий,
Старик Палей из мрака ссылки
В Украйну едет в царский стан."

"Внезапно Карл поворотил
И перенес войну в Украйну."
A.S. Pushkin, poem "Poltava"

Besides, the Ukrainian editions of some Russian newspapers are titled as "Известия в Украине", "Аргументы и Факты в Украине", "Комсомольская Правда в Украине"

Besides, the Russian Federation Embassy to Ukraine is officially titled as "Посольство Российской Федерации в Украине"

Besides, "в Украине" is equivalent, for example, to "в Республике Куба", since the official title of Ukraine has no other words apart from "Ukraine". Any title like "Republic of Ukraine" does not exist. So, the official title "Ukraine" replaced the former official title "the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic", which was, naturally, used with the preposition "в", not "на".

To sum up the written above, there are no reasons for argueing: the Russians should not protest against saying "в Украине" and the Ukrainians should not protest against saying "на Украине".
Let's be peaceful.

[quorax.livejournal.com]

На Кубе is used because Cuba is an island country; but anyway, i don't believe that Russians who use "на Украине" consider Ukraine an island or not a country or still being a part of USSR or something (and if some of them do starting to say "в Украине" could hardly change their mind).

[karakal.livejournal.com]

What about на Руси then?
I'm with those here who say it's a question of pure politics.
Do we anyway have examples from the past where one nation could dictate to another nation what type of prepositions it should use in its native language?
Yes we have examples where entire languages were prohibited from official use, but its a different story.

[agorbylev.livejournal.com]

Etymological Ukraina is "окраина" (remote area). Therefore people say "на" ("на окраине").

в vs. на Украине

[icamel.livejournal.com]

ever heard a joke about пыво vs пиво? very strange reason for proofing the norm. btw, in shevchenko's testament used на Вкраiнi

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

You really think it's the first time someone starts this flame even here? :)

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Why, haven't you heard about the Ancient Ukres, who lived 5,000 years ago, invented all useful things, and were the first European nation? :) This is not a widely spread theory в Ukraine :)

[wordchick.livejournal.com]

When I first came to Ukraine, I thought that everything would be a political Holy War, as you suggest. However, most everyday Ukrainians who choose to speak Russian are fairly easy going (or at least they are where I live, in the center of the country).

[wordchick.livejournal.com]

Thank you. Your answer is very interesting and informative. I appreciate it.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

You still think that a question that easily makes 35 comments in an educational community is that innocent? :)

:-)

[agorbylev.livejournal.com]

Are you sure the Ancient Ukres also spoke in Russian? :-)

Re: :-)

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

According to The Theory, the modern Russian is badly spoilt and Tatarized language of the Ancient Ukres :)

[wordchick.livejournal.com]

No, you're right, it is a contested question, but I wanted to know what people thought. All the same, what I said above is true.

[http://users.livejournal.com/neko_/]

But now you still can say about geographical area. Is doesn't depend of belongings to any counries. That's why Russians usualy use "на Украине" (which is right for Russian language itself), but not "в Украине".
And according to investigations of linguists the form with "на" was used long before Russian empire and USSR, just like "на Орловщине" or "на Брянщине".
The form of "в" is now accepted in Ukraine for using in all official situation, just like an accent on a country's independence.

[http://users.livejournal.com/neko_/]

Here is an explanation from Russian language referral service (unfortunately in Russian only):

Грамота.ру однажды дала исчерпывающий ответ:

++
Вопрос № 87633:
Скажите пожалуйста как правильно на Украину или в Украину? Раньше я встречала это выражение спредлогом на, а сейчас встречаю оба варианта.

Людмила Корнейкова, ответ справочной службы русского языка:
Правильно по-русски: на Украину. В 1993 году по требованию Правительства Украины нормативным следовало признать варианты в Украину и соответственно из Украины. Тем самым, по мнению украинского Правительства, разрывалась не устраивающая его этимологическая связь конструкций на Украину и на окраину. Украина с предлогом в получала, по мнению Правительства Украины, лингвистическое подтверждение своего статуса суверенного государства. Академик В. Г. Костомаров так написал об этом: <<Нетрудно согласиться и с непривычным для русских в Украине - пусть так, если кому-то чудится, что на Украине унизительно напоминает на краю, на окраине. Так в свое время китайцы просили различать на Тайване (на острове) и в Тайване (в не признаваемом КНР государстве)... Порой приходится мириться и с самым наивным политическим и национальным мышлением: есть вещи выше неприкосновенной чистоты литературно-языкового канона>>.