sorry again

[misterobnoxious.livejournal.com]

Sorry to bother everyone again, but I have a final tomorrow and am trying to understand

тот, кто and то, что

so if I am right, first is for people, and the second is for things?

and the conjugations are..

тот то та те
того́ того́ той тех
тому́ тому́ той тем
N or G то ту N or G
тем тем той те́ми
о том о том о той о тех

for the тот, кто, тот can be any of them? or would it be just the he/they (so masc/plural?)
and for то, что, the то will always be replaced by something from the second column?

and for the pronoun after the comma, will it always be one of these?
Nominative кто что
Genitive кого чего
Dative кому чему
Accusative кого что
Instrumental кем чем
Prepositional о ком о чём

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

Could you give some examples? Frankly, I don't exactly understand your question.

[sithoid.livejournal.com]

If you mean complex sentences, the second word's conjugation depends on the next part of the sentence. For example:

Я увидел того, кто вчера мне приснился. (I saw a man whom I saw in a dream yesterday).
Хотел бы я увидеть тех, кому это интересно. (I wish I could meet those who are interested in this matter)

[oryx_and_crake]

Agreed. And it could take practically any combination of cases, e.g. "Это был тот, кого я вчера видел".

[misterobnoxious.livejournal.com]

so the first word's conjugation can be 1 / ? . 1 out of 12 (masculine/plural?, or can it be 1/24?.

And the second one can only be 1/6, either a form of kto in tot,kto or a form of shto in to,shto?

sorry, does that clear it up any better?

[oryx_and_crake]

I still don't understand your arithmetic, but it can be тот, та, то, те and any other cases thereof (тому, той, тем etc.) if you are speaking about people or things. However when talking about abstract processes you use only то:
Это не то, о чем ты подумал
Это именно то, чего я боялся etc.

[sithoid.livejournal.com]

The first word may be masculine, neutral or female, as well as single or plural. The second one... well, maybe there can be some other words, but not in exactly same sutiation. It is a simplified form of "Тот (человек), который...", or "Тот (предмет), который/что...". So "человек, который" is just replaced with "кто", and "предмет, который" - by "что"/

This construction is pretty similar to the English "Those who..." or "That (anything) which..."

[kunaifusu.livejournal.com]

for the тот, кто, тот can be any of them? or would it be just the he/they (so masc/plural?)
It can be either depending on the speaker's knowledge: when the gender and number are unknown you use singular masculine "тот, кто" otherwise, if you know you are talking about several people or women, you will use feminine or plural accordingly.

[kunaifusu.livejournal.com]

or a woman even

[yms.livejournal.com]

so if I am right, first is for people, and the second is for things?

Not necessarily. It's possible to say "тот, что" about people; roughly, it's like "the person that...". I can't describe the difference right now. Maybe, тот, кто is mandatory when this "кто" is a subject in the following clause, and "тот, что" is used in all other cases. But I'm not sure.

[yms.livejournal.com]

no, not exactly so. I took as an example the file with all texts by Vysotsky (can be found here (http://www.fictionbook.ru/author/viysockiyi_vladimir_semenovich/sochineniya/viysockiyi_sochineniya.html)) and searched for "тот, что":

"Помер мой сосед, что справа, тот, что слева, - еще нет."
"И вот рабочий - тот, что дом ломал, - ударил с маху гирею по крыше..."
"Чеширский Кот - совсем не тот, что чешет языком"
"А четвертый - тот, что крайний, боковой"
"Этот, что статуи был лишен"

and there are also a lot of examples of "тот, кто" in this text.

[kunaifusu.livejournal.com]

"тот, что" is colloquial or poetic.

[malim-praedari.livejournal.com]

My feeling is that the use of "кто" vs. "что" when referring to animate subjects depends on the degree of specificity. You use "кто" when referring to "any person", someone who could be anyone. On the other hand, you use "что" when identifying someone specific, as in pointing them out; you can always substitute "тот, кото́рый" (in all its gender/case permutations) for "тот, что" but never for "тот, кто". In effect, "тот, что" is a colloquial/poetic equivalent of "тот, кото́рый".

Here are some examples:

1) Тому́, кто пе́рвый войдёт в э́ту дверь, мы отру́бим го́лову. (We will chop off the head of the first person who walks through this door). You cannot use "тому, что" here.

2) Вот мой дя́дя - тот, что рабо́тает в ба́нке. (Here is my uncle, the one who works in a bank). You cannot use "тот, кто" here; "тот, кото́рый" is the preferred form.

[yms.livejournal.com]

"Но тот, кто раньше с нею был, меня, как видно не забыл". It's very specific, and also can be substituted with тот, который ;)

I think, specificity has nothing to do with this...

[malim-praedari.livejournal.com]

Hmm, I can't see how you can substitute "тот, который" here. It doesn't sound right to me.

You are right, however, in saying that specificity may be the wrong word to use. What I mean is that with "тот, кто" we are focusing on one person out of the entire population or an undefined set, whereas with "тот, что" we are focusing on a person out of a limited set. That's why "который" is a good test word: it can be substituted in the second case, but not the first.