(no subject)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Hello dearest teachers,

I have two questions today.

1. In the song I tortured you with he sings "Родители меня назвали Коля". To me it woud be more natural to say "Родители меня назвали Колей". I guess both are right, but does it sound more educated to use the instrumental, or is it totally vse ravno?

2. The russian expression "в принципе". Does it mean "in principle" or does it mean "out of principel"? maybe my english is not good enough to explain what I mean but in swedish we use that expression in this way: "In principle I am against, BUT...." But it seems to me that sometimes in Russian it means almost like категорически.

UPD: Thank you soo much, everybody, my confusion is now 100% sorted out!

Comments

[taliva.livejournal.com]

i think "в принципе" usually means "as a matter of fact"

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

hm, but when sombody writes: "ya v printsipe protiv mnogozhenstva." (and then he says nothing more, he does not continue with ", no inogda ...")

How would you translate it? is he saying that he is very much against or is he saying that it is "just in priciple"?.

[oscar-6.livejournal.com]

In fact, when "в принципе" is used as "in principle" (and followed by "but..."), it should be surronded by commas, because it's a parenthesis.

Of course, when you're listening to someone, you have no other choice than to guess the meaning basing on the context. In your example, if that someone says nothing more, it is safe to assume that he is strongly against it.

[superbad.livejournal.com]

I'd say "generally I'm against..."

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

merci!

[oiseau-russe.livejournal.com]

2. В принципе may be used in both meanings. Этого не может быть в принципе is "it can not be because it can not". В принципе я против, но... is what you suggest "In principle I am against, but..."

1. The first variant is more colloquial, but both are used.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

2. Aha, thanks! It is when it is used in the Этого не может быть в принципе-meaning I get confused, because then the use of the word principle underlines the fact or the opinion. When it is used in the other meaning, as we use it in swedish, it is an "ogovorka", to make room for exceptions. So it is almost opposite meanings!
1. thanks!

[trepang.livejournal.com]

"в принципе", not "в принсипе".
it means, 'in principle', 'basically', 'essentially'. "out of principle" would be "из принципа".

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

oops, i thought it looked a bit strange when i wrot it...
thanks

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

but do people maybe sometimes mix them up and write "в принсипе" when they actually mean "из принципа"?

[crimeanelf.livejournal.com]

Can you come up with an example?

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Hm, I searched with yandex, and mostly it is used in the mening that seems natural to me, but then I found this:

Современные оппозиционные российские партии, в том числе "Яблоко", - этого делать в принципе не умеют.

And her it is in context:
Здесь вообще некая коренная проблема борьбы за власть - уметь найти те лозунги, призывы и требования, которые, не противореча принципиальным позициям и целям данной партии, соединят их с массовыми ожиданиями и настроениями общества. Современные оппозиционные российские партии, в том числе "Яблоко", - этого делать в принципе не умеют. Более того - само это естественное требование вызывает у них яростно-отрицательную реакцию.

It sounds like he means that they definately can't do it. I wouldent translate it in to that they cant do it in priciple?

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

seeams to me it is the very Этого не может быть в принципе-meaning that oiseau_russe (and I) claim exists)

[crimeanelf.livejournal.com]

I guess then I don't understand what English "in principle" means. :) Do you mind off-topic explanation?

The quote you found means there is no way they would know how to do it.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thanks!
It is now clear to me that the russian expression has a broader and more "context-depending" meaning than the Swedish!

maybe I do not understand the english very well either, maybe it is more like the russian, then like the swedish.

[trepang.livejournal.com]

I've never come across this mistake. But everything is possible.

[alek-morse.livejournal.com]

I agree with oiseau_russe regarding the using the expression "in principle"...

As for the first phrase... Both variants are right, of course. The matter is there is accusative case in Russian grammar, if I'm not mistaken (I'm not sure, becouse I was in school quite long time ago). So, there is using both declensions.

Are you in your userpick? very romantic! You are as Ihtiandr from old Soviet film "Amphibian-Man" :)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thanks for help with the principle, now I feel strengthen in my bleive that I can not always translate it strait into swedish.
It's me, the captain leaving port inte Eagean sea. Kapitan otplyvaet!

[crimeanelf.livejournal.com]

About your first question.

1) You are right, I think. Nevertheless, when we introduce ourselves, we say "меня зовут Коля" rather than "меня зовут Колей", right? And it is the same grammatical construction.

2) Колей would not rhyme with нелегко, ля. ;) Also note his hero is not a professor of linguistics, but rather a criminal with orphan past. ;) His Russian is generally not good. For example, жилося instead of жилось. BTW, in the same movie did you hear Shnur clearly singing бюлютень rather than бюллетень? :)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

yeah, i heard the bulleten-thing. he also says "vyborá", is that an incorrect plural?

[uncle-gora.livejournal.com]

It is indeed incorrect plural.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Не буду нюхать ни хера!
чтоб не сорвались выборá!
е-е-еы растëт правосознание!

It's a way to make it rhyme...
Russian is just fantastic the way you can play with endings an parts of words to get rythms and rhymes. Sweish is not that "gibkij" att all.

[uncle-gora.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm not quite convinced that the reason for this ending is just to make it rhyme. Mispronunciations of this kind are quite common, and can arguable indicate the level of education of the speakers. Examples:
выбора - выборы
шулера - шулеры
примуса - примусы
договора - договоры
etc...

[crimeanelf.livejournal.com]

Yes, it is. :)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Also note his hero is not a professor of linguistics, but rather a criminal with orphan past. ;)
Criminal!?
Da, net nu, chto ty, na?
My zhe patrioty, na!
V udobnyx trenirovochnyx shtanax

U n ego probudilis' intellekt i volja, i on vyrvalsya iz kruga svoego!

[crimeanelf.livejournal.com]

:D

But you know what this dress-code stands for, right, lya?

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

я с такими пацанами сталкивалась на рынке?


(И Рамзан Кадыров был в таком костюме когда Путин его принимал в Кремле, после убийства его отца...)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Oh, I didn't mean it was some ethnic clothing, v polne slavianskie also dress like that!

[crimeanelf.livejournal.com]

:)

People would correct if I'm wrong, but the criminal society of the 90-s, which gave birth to songs of that kind, русский шансон, also had same dress-code, it involved Mersedes 600, тренировочные штаны, crimson coat and a huge gold chain. But it was a little higher level mafia than what you probably saw on bazaars. I doubt any of bazaar guys can afford a new Mersedes. :)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Aha, I see. But the little higher mafia dont dress like that anymore?
And words about dress-codes: "malinovye rubashki" - is that novye russkie?

[crimeanelf.livejournal.com]

Yes, малиновые пиджаки stands for "new russians". :) And yes, mafia don't dress like this anymore.

But remember, he says, that he *was* like that before until he started singing. And the whole musical style came from that new russians. All this together makes me think he refers to 90-s and not modern times.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

aha, pidzhaki, not rubashki.

[uncle-gora.livejournal.com]

It isn't ethnic, you are right. But the reasons why удобные тренировочные штаны are so popular with both Russian gangsters and Chechen terrorists (even if we for a moment assume that these two groups are not connected), is the fact that they are comfortable. It's more comfortable to run, fight, shoot and kill when you wearing something like that.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

I dont get it, are you insinuating that president ramzan is a russian criminal or a chechen terrorist?! Da, net nu, chto ty, na? My zh patrioty, na!
(oh God, I wrote the above and then realised that it is not even funny.)

I have one more question, it is about the word сгинуть. It means "to go under", right, but does it have anything to do with the rotten? or has it got something to do with the word gibnut'?

(Eto tozhe iz pesni; U koli byli takie isxodnye dannye, chto on mog by sginut' v zone na vsegda)

[uncle-gora.livejournal.com]

As far as my insinuation goes, let's just say that I was simply commenting on your observation about the likeness of the two fashion thrends, one of Russian mafia enforcers, and the current president of Chechnya, who was at some point in opposition to the Russian government and a member of незаконных вооружённых банд формирований, hence was called a terrorist. I might further confuse you by saying the followng: in Russian, we often the same word боевик to describe a terrorist and an enforcer.

Now to the second part of your question:
I would say that the closest Russian word to be used instead of сгинуть is пропАсть (disappear), although the two words are not necessary interchangable. The singer was saying that with his background he could have simply go to jail and never return. And if you think about it, гибель (death) (is the word from which гибнуть is derived) would be one of the reasons for not returning.

I might be wrong, but I do not think that сгинуть (at least in modern Russian) could be used in place of протухнуть (to rot). I've heard some older folks use word пропАсть (i.e. морковка вся с прошлого урожая пропала) in that context.

I hope this is not too confusing. :)

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Merci!
I think the word propast' Is often used about food going bad? You know, like we need to finnish up what we have in tne refrigerator, "a to propadët".

[oiseau-russe.livejournal.com]

yes, you are right. Пропасть is also used in this sens.

From Russia with love:)

[error-304.livejournal.com]

For the first question: you're correct, both variants are correct. In that song "...назвали меня Коля" is used for rhyme with word "...бля" (russian filthy language word)... but it's just an additional information ^_^

[malim-praedari.livejournal.com]

About your question 2: both meanings are correct, and you can figure out which of the two is being used by looking at punctuation. (This is assuming the text is punctuated correctly, which is an increasingly dubious assumption these days).

"В принципе" meaning "in principle / generally / more or less" is set off by commas: "Я, в принципе, не против, но вдруг не получится?" ("I'm not against it as such, but what if it doesn't work?").

"В принципе" meaning "absolutely not, not even remotely" does not require commas: "Это в принципе невозможно" ("This is simply not possible").

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

OH! thank you so much!