[identity profile] misterobnoxious.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] learn_russian
Thank you for all of your help!

Here is what I have learned:

- не выходил - I always have trouble with verbs of motion, this one is... multidirectional?

- Однажды - is idiomatic

I don't know why I put four corners in prepositional...

все will take the third person plural, unlike English

some of the weird sounding sentences was because I tried to use certain words from the story, as some people noticed.



Once again, thanks for all of your help, spasibo bolshoe!

Date: 2007-10-15 10:03 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] sombreadm.livejournal.com
Гриша - маленький пухлый ребёнокмальчик (i think 'мальчик' better), ему два года и восемь месяцев.

За два года и восемь месяцев Гриша никогда нивышёл не выходил из своего дома: он очень хорошо знал всё о своей детской.
Один день однажды, он и его няня (this all right) вышли из этого четырёхугольном миреа с четырьмя углами, и Гриша увидел много интересных вещей. Гриша глядел на лошадей, но он ничего <-> не понял ,s>о них, oн узнал что солдаты не опасные, он видел дваух кошкиек, и Гриша бежал за ними,а высокий человек со светлыми пуговицами, который друг няни, поговорил с няней. Гриша, няня, и человек со светлыми пуговицами пошли (this right) к кухарке (maybe на кухню - to the kitchen), где все ест и пьёт (in third - едят и пьют), даже Гриша. Вернувшись домой, Гриша свё рассказывал маме о своём днёмдне. Не вынося своего возбуждения, Грише невозможно уснуть.Гриша так возбудтлся, что не мог уснуть. Мама решаларешила, что он болен.

Date: 2007-10-15 10:07 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ckamikadze.livejournal.com
Му version

Гриша - маленький пухлый ребенок: ему два года и восемь месяцев.
Два года и восемь месяцев Гриша ни разу не выходил из своего дома: он очень хорошо знал все о своей детской.
Однажды няня вышли из этого мира с четырьмя углами , и Гриша увидел много интересных вещей: Гриша увидел лошадей, но не узнал ничего о них, он узнал, что солдаты не опасны, он увидел двух кошек, и побежал за ними,а высокий человек со светлыми пуговицами, друг няни, поговорил с няней. Гриша, няня, и человек со светлыми пуговицами пошли , к кухарке, где все поели и попили , даже Гриша. Вернувшись домой, Гриша рассказал маме все о своем дне. Из за возбуждения, Гриша не мог уснуть. Мама решила что он болен.

Also this sentence Из за возбуждения, Гриша не мог уснуть. (Не вынося своего возбуждения, Грише невозможно уснуть) sounds a bit strange. Like he couldn't sleep of erection

Date: 2007-10-15 12:26 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
sounds a bit strange. Like he couldn't sleep of erection
---
You really let your fantasy go rampant. Возбуждение is perfectly OK and normally does not cause sexual-related connotations. Mind also that you don't need a comma after Из-за возбуждения, though it is better to say от возбуждения in this context, and even better Гриша был так возбужден, что не мог уснуть.

Date: 2007-10-15 10:09 am (UTC)
alon_68: (Default)
From: [personal profile] alon_68
You only have some questions about grammar?

It's so terrible that you'd better to write it in English and ask the community to translate into Russian. I can hardly understand what you're talking about here :(

Date: 2007-10-15 12:23 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
May I ask you to refrain from such comment as this in future? You know, people come here to learn and be helped, not to be told off. And, as you see, people understood the story and offered their corrected versions, so is it possible there may be something wrong with your perception ability, not with the way the story is told?

Date: 2007-10-15 12:32 pm (UTC)
alon_68: (Default)
From: [personal profile] alon_68
OK, sorry :)

Date: 2007-10-15 10:09 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belaja-belka.livejournal.com
Гриша - маленький пухлый ребёнок: ему два года и восемь месяцев.
За два года и восемь месяцев Гриша никогда не выходил из своего дома: он очень хорошо знал всё о своей детской.
В один день он и его няня вышли из этого четырёхугольного мира, и Гриша увидел много интересных вещей: Гриша глядел на лошадей, но (maybe "хотя"?) не понял ничего о них, oн узнал, что солдаты не опасны, он видел двух кошек, и Гриша бежал за ними, а высокий человек со светлыми пуговицами, друг няни, разговаривал с няней. Гриша, няня и человек со светлыми пуговицами пошли к кухарке, где все ели и пили, даже Гриша. Вернувшись домой, Гриша рассказывал маме всё о своём дне (о том, как провел день?). От возбуждения Гриша не мог уснуть. Мама решила, что он заболел.

Very strange story, I would rather decide not Grisha, but his mother ill. 2 years and 8 months child is locked in his room...
The sentences are too long. It would be better to divide some for two or even three.

Date: 2007-10-15 12:32 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
It is a story by Chekhov, so maybe it is not as strange as you think. People did and wrote things differently 100 years ago.

Date: 2007-10-15 12:41 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belaja-belka.livejournal.com
O, I see my ignorance...
But isn't it strange, to keep child in one room for almost 3 years?

Date: 2007-10-15 12:42 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Maybe the ideas about fresh air etc. are modern and were not in fashion at the time.

Date: 2007-10-15 12:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belaja-belka.livejournal.com
Poor boy :)

Date: 2007-10-15 01:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] markushka.livejournal.com
Oh, no! Don't grab my brain:

http://www.my-chekhov.com/ru/proizved/164.shtml

Date: 2007-10-15 01:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belaja-belka.livejournal.com
I've already read this, thank you.

Date: 2007-10-15 01:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] markushka.livejournal.com
Yep. Why they are studying Russian reading that stuff? Just rhetorical question...

Sometimes teacher do have strange ideas.

Date: 2007-10-15 01:32 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belaja-belka.livejournal.com
One Russian teacher told how was astonished, then her Chinese student ask her: "Do words "ленивый" and "празднолюбивый" mean the same?"
Because he brought from China a very big dictionary, full of such old words - as recommended for studying Russian.

Re: Sometimes teacher do have strange ideas.

Date: 2007-10-15 02:04 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] markushka.livejournal.com
Wondering why not to study Russian with translation of Old Slavonic "Не лепо ли ны бяшет, братие, начяти старыми словесы трудных повестий о полку Игореве, Игоря Святославлича!"

Re: Sometimes teacher do have strange ideas.

Date: 2007-10-15 02:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belaja-belka.livejournal.com
At least, student's speaking will be free of modern slang :)

Re: Sometimes teacher do have strange ideas.

Date: 2007-10-15 02:22 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] markushka.livejournal.com
Student can find Боян in ancient legends...

Re: Sometimes teacher do have strange ideas.

Date: 2007-10-15 02:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] embers.livejournal.com
I've been reading a book of Russian short stories but since they're all so old it's very hard for me because none of the words really translate into modern usage & it's hard for a non-native speaker to guess at the meaning. & Here I thought it would be helpful!

Re: Sometimes teacher do have strange ideas.

Date: 2007-10-15 02:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belaja-belka.livejournal.com
Maybe this is a good dictionary, but for beginners it's not only not much help, but it also can be bad. Students can be lost in all this old words, especially if dictionary do not mark them with special sign.

Date: 2007-10-15 10:11 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] gordin.livejournal.com
никогда нивышёл - better just не выходил. I mean нивышёл is totally your invention, but also никогда seems not needed here.

Один день doesn't work. В один прекрасный день is an idiom close to that, or just Однажды (once) will do.

does this need to be svoyej? No, you did it right.

again verb of motion? - here ok.

из этого четырёхугольном мире с четырьмя углам - should be четырёхугольного, but the sentence still doesn't make any sense.

Гриша видел много интересных вещей - better "увидел"

видел два кошки - кошка is feminine, so две.

поговорил с няне - с няней

is this the correct verb of motion, is the prefix neccesary? it's ok

все ест и пьёт - nope, едят и пьют (ели и пили if you wanna say 'were drinking and eating')

свё рассказывал маме о своём днём - should be всё рассказал маме о своём дне

Не вынося своего возбуждения, Грише невозможно уснуть - should go differently. E. g. Гриша был так возбуждён, что не мог уснуть

Мама решала что он болен - решила

Your most notable problem is with perfective verbs (решила/решала, рассказывал/рассказал, et c.)

Date: 2007-10-16 12:23 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Кошка is also animate, so видел двух кошек

Гриша видел много интересных вещей is OK, I think


Date: 2007-10-16 12:25 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
P.S. Actually, Grisha saw two dogs, not two cats! He just did not realise that and thought them to be cats because a cat was the only animal he saw in his life so far.

Date: 2007-10-15 10:33 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] markushka.livejournal.com
Comments: "пухлый" bears negative meaning, some cuteness to be added by "еньк" suffix; do not repeat words too much times - say "2 yrs 8 mnths" once; instead of "angles" say "walls"; "ничего не понял о них" - a blueprint form "understand nothing", better to say something like "did not understand what it is"; man had not "светлые" (light) buttons but "блестящие" (bright); if Гиша came to the kitchen together with nanny and man with shining buttons, no need to repeat again that he had a lunch too if them all had; if Гриша have been falling asleep too long better to say "долго не мог"

Гриша - пухленький карапуз, ему два года и восемь месяцев.

С рождения Гриша ни разу не покидал дома, зато очень хорошо знал свою детскую. Однажды он в сопровождении няни вышел из мира, ограниченного четырьмя стенами. Снаружи Гриша увидел много интересных вещей. Гриша смотрел на лошадей, но не понял что это такое; oн узнал что солдаты не опасны; он видел двух кошек, Гриша за ними побежал; друг няни, высокий мужчина с блестящими пуговицами говорил с ней. Гриша, няня и мужчина со блестящими пуговицами пошли на кухню, где все они поели и выпили. Вернувшись домой, Гриша рассказал маме о том, как прошёл день. Гриша так возбудился, что долго не мог уснуть. Мама решила, что он болен.

Date: 2007-10-15 11:40 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vovse-ne.livejournal.com
And more literary:

С рождения Гриша ни разу не покидал дома, зато очень хорошо знал свою детскую. Однажды он в сопровождении няни вышел из мира, ограниченного четырьмя стенами. Снаружи Гриша увидел много интересного. Гриша смотрел на лошадей, но не понял что это такое; oн узнал, что солдаты не опасны; он видел двух кошек и побежал за ними. Друг няни, высокий мужчина с блестящими пуговицами, разговаривал с ней. Гриша, няня и мужчина с блестящими пуговицами пошли на кухню, где они ели и пили./Not выпили - it seems as they drank vodka Вернувшись домой, Гриша рассказал маме о том, как прошёл день. Гриша был так возбуждён,"Так возбудился" let many people think about sex. что долго не мог уснуть. Мама решила, что он болен.

Date: 2007-10-15 12:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aylie-serinde.livejournal.com
Гриша смотрел на лошадей, но не понял что это такое - shouldn't there be a comma before что?

Re: Sometimes teacher do have strange ideas.

Date: 2007-10-15 04:16 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com
No, there shouldn't.

"Что" does not play the role of a conjunctive for a clause. The whole "что это такое" is an object here.
If you put a comma, you get "Гриша смотрел на лошадей, но не понял, что это такое".

This construction should be read with an emphasis on "что", "что" has got to be a conjunctive and it'll mean something like this: "Grisha looked at the horses, but he didn't understand that this was like that".

Another example to illustrate the point.

Я вижу, что вы едите. — I see that you eat. (I look at you, and I see that you are occupied with the process of eating something.)
Я вижу что вы едите. — I see what you eat. (I look at the food, the dishes or something — the things you are eating.)

It's quite not a catchy shade of russian language, much of the people I see do not pay attention to this aspect at all. You have to be careful with those who dare to play eloquent people. :)

p.s. I'm not that familiar with the russian didactics, so excuse me, if "clause", "conjunctive" and "object" are not the best terms to use here for description.

Re: Sometimes teacher do have strange ideas.

Date: 2007-10-15 06:17 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
This is a bunch of unbelievable rubbish. There SHOULD be a comma before "что". Period.

Date: 2007-10-15 08:08 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com
Let's find out the truth. I don't like this kind of responses. It's not rubbish, it's logic.

http://www.spelling.spb.ru/rosenthal/alpha/r114.htm (http://www.spelling.spb.ru/rosenthal/alpha/r114.htm)

Date: 2007-10-15 08:11 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
The phrase we are discussing does not fit any of the cases which according to Rosenthal don't need a comma.

Date: 2007-10-15 09:33 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com
I thought it fit the first case, my apologies. Thanks.

Date: 2007-10-15 11:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vovse-ne.livejournal.com
Yes, it SHOULD be a comma. I just forgot to put it there.

Re: Sometimes teacher do have strange ideas.

Date: 2007-10-15 10:42 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aylie-serinde.livejournal.com
Well, the terms are quite adequate and the whole idea is not so wrong, I only doubt that all these things should somehow influence the syntax.

Date: 2007-10-15 06:18 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Of course there should be a comma.

Date: 2007-10-15 09:36 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com
Nevermind my comment, I admit being wrong >_<

Date: 2007-10-15 12:46 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] markushka.livejournal.com
"Возбудился" have sexual meaning not in the text about small cute child... We are very spoiled Russians...

Date: 2007-10-15 12:55 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] markushka.livejournal.com
Yes, sounds like "Выпили и закусили" = "Had some vodka and snacks"

Date: 2007-10-15 01:11 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] markushka.livejournal.com
In the Chekhov's story they drink vodka, definitely:
"Кухарка ставит на стол бутылку, три рюмки и пирог. Две женщины и человек со светлыми пуговицами чокаются и пьют по нескольку раз, и человек обнимает то няньку, то кухарку."

He is "excited":
"Он ворочается с боку на бок, болтает и в конце концов, не вынося своего возбуждения, начинает плакать."

Date: 2007-10-15 01:15 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belaja-belka.livejournal.com
read the Chekhov's tale - they namely drink vodka. Even Grisha.

Date: 2007-10-15 01:23 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] markushka.livejournal.com
Yep. That's great. But buttons are "светлые" - that's my mistake. I've looked at the text from adult's point of view and modern fashion :-)

Date: 2007-10-15 11:25 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] vovse-ne.livejournal.com
I didn't understand it was Checkov! :)

Date: 2007-10-16 06:29 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] belaja-belka.livejournal.com
me neither ;)

Date: 2007-10-15 12:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] aylie-serinde.livejournal.com
You've missed several commas here.
Better Он видел двух кошек, которых попытался догнать.

Date: 2007-10-15 12:31 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Гриша глядел на лошадей, но он не понял ничего о них,oн узнал что солдаты не опасные, он видел два кошки, и Гриша бежал за ними
---
You say Гриша, then "он" and then Гриша again. This sounds bad. "он видел два кошки, и Гриша бежал за ними" sounds especially wrong because it creates an impression that there was one person ("он") who saw the cats and another one ("Гриша") who ran after them. You should say Гриша once in the beginning of the phrase and not repeat it unnecesarily (don't use extraneous "он" either): Гриша увидел двух кошек и побежал за ними. Make the sentences shorter; then you will be able to say Гриша in about every other sentence and "он" in the rest of them. Also mind that if you use Гриша and он in the same sentence you should FIRST say "Гриша" and then "он", not the other way round as English has it.

Date: 2007-10-15 01:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] markushka.livejournal.com
So I recommend you to read whole story by A. Chekhov (thanks [livejournal.com profile] oryx_and_crake who remembered (googled?) the source text): http://www.my-chekhov.com/ru/proizved/164.shtml

I actively do not recommend to study modern Russian even if you read adapted Chekhov. His language is brilliant, colorful and exciting but sometimes not very easy to feel what he means... Do you know what "бурнус" means? Are you feeding children with "касторка" frequently? What's "фалда"?

If adapted - you miss 99% of colours, 99% of meaning... Uh-oh...

Date: 2007-10-16 12:21 am (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
If you think of все as "all", not as "everybody", it will be easier for you to memorise that it takes plural.

I don't know what you mean by "не выходил" being multidirectional, could you explain?

Однажды is not idiomatic, it just means "one day" (as in "one day he did this or that")

Date: 2007-10-18 04:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spiritrc.livejournal.com
I would say "однажды" means "once" (as in "once upon a time"), not just "one day".
I believe it's derived from "единожды", which is also "once" in English, but in a different meaning (once, twice, thrice)

Date: 2007-10-18 06:45 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Depends on the context.

Однажды, придя в школу, я обнаружил, что учительница заболела.
One day, having arrived to school, I found out that the teacher is sick.
This is "one day", not "once", because there is nothing to suggest that this happened only once in all the school years.

Date: 2007-10-18 04:39 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spiritrc.livejournal.com
I think it's a bad idea to delete your whole original post and replace it with the comments.
That way it's hard to find out what's all this is about.
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