Dark L

[giantantattack.livejournal.com]

When, if ever, is л pronounced as a "dark l" [ɫ]? (i.e. In which phonetic environments does it appear?)
Wikipedia says this happens in the word малый (as [ˈmaɫɨj]). Is that correct? If so, why there?

Thanks

Comments

[giantantattack.livejournal.com]

This can't be the case since "dark l" also occurs in English (in words like "bell" and "milk"). And those Ls are definitely not palatalized. Besides, why would it occur in малый when ы does not palatalize the preceding consonant?

[izergilda.livejournal.com]

dark *l* is a non-palatalized *l*, by the way.

[zhirafov-nyet.livejournal.com]

That doesn't sound correct. I've never heard dark l in Russian before. Perhaps they got it confused with Bulgarian; they love it.

[izergilda.livejournal.com]

2 zhirafov_net: really, what about the word *луна*? do you really think it's pronounced like [л'уна]? +)

i don't know the rule as such, but I guess, the dark *l* preceeds the letters а, э, о, у, ы.
while the light *l* (that is, the palatalized *l*) preceeds the letters и, е, ё, ю, я.

i can't think of any combination of a dark *l* with a consonant right now. i think, it's usually a light *l* that is found before consonants in Russian. in words like социальный, криминальный, льготы, еtc.
oh, i found a word just now, it's the word *лгать* and its derivatives. and the words *лбина* and its derivatives.
i believe, such words are really few in Russian. +)

[giantantattack.livejournal.com]

I think you might be a bit confused. The word "dark" does not refer to palatalization (or lack thereof) at all. It's a synonym of sorts for the term "velarized", which simply means the back of your tongue approaches your soft palate (velum). So л, ль, and this "dark l" are three separate sounds.

[izergilda.livejournal.com]

oh, i see. thank you for your correction, i've never studied theoretical phonetics of Russian as such, these are just some thoughts of mine, as a Russian native speaker.
still, you can change all the phrases with dark *l* in my message into the common Russian sound *л*, and then it'll be absolutely true. +)

[damiel.livejournal.com]

So л, ль, and this "dark l" are three separate sounds.

[ɫ] would be an allophone of /l/ in any case, and never of /lʲ/. As for context, I think I hear it (at least) before high closed vowels [ɨ] and [u], and maybe in syllable-final position. But I think this may be dialect and speaker dependent, and some speakers may use the velar allophone everywhere. I've heard some Russian speakers produce a hard l so "dark" that sounds almost pharyngealized.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

булка, колбаса, палка, толстый, галка... shall I go on? ;-)

Dark ≠ hard

[zhirafov-nyet.livejournal.com]

Research your phonetics before calling me out on something I didn't do wrong please.

[sonja.livejournal.com]

I would like to know where this sound should occur. I haven't been studying Russian long, but I do hear it pretty often in the language.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

IIRC, that is if I correctly understand meaning of term "dark l", there's no such sound in Russian, 'cus Russian "l" isn't really velarized, either hard or palatalized -- at least as I hear it.

[kart.livejournal.com]

I don't know if there is a special rule for "dark L" in Russian or if it's just an accent.

Pittsburghese gets a rilly strong dark ewl, prolly from Powlish or Lit-a-wayne-yun n'at.
Pittsburghese (a regional dialect in Pennsylvania, USA) get a really strong dark L, probably from Polish or Lithuanian.

Actual example ))

[genuine-al-cash.livejournal.com]

There is Russian lesson in Georgian school. Teacher:
- Слова "СОЛ" и "БОЛ" пишутся с мягким знаком, а слова "ТАРЕЛЬКА" и "ВИЛЬКА" - без мягкого знака. Понять это невозможно, только запомнить!
It would be told with specific southern accent wellknown to all the Russians))
Maybe some people confuse "dark" & "hard" consolants, so?