Learn Russian

Sure, you are always welcome. And archaicos's post on which he gave a link below should probably be in the memories too.

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voltaireontoast.livejournal.com

Apart from double perfective movement verbs. Which make my head want to explode. ..or are they double imperfective? Either way, they're EVIL.

/random.

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May I ask what are these? I, like most native speakers, have no idea about the scientific names for concepts of my own language.

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voltaireontoast.livejournal.com

Verbs like ездить-ехать/поехать which have three infinitives.

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archaicos.livejournal.com

Don't forget about the future continuous: это будет происходить завтра. This form is imperfect/continuous no matter what verb you put into it. Of course, changing the verb to its past participle will make it perfect again: это будет сделано/проделано завтра (произошедше isn't a valid past participle).

There's a slight help in identifying the perfect/imperfect form. See (my (http://community.livejournal.com/learn_russian/498448.html?thread=7577360#t7577360)) comments to this post (http://community.livejournal.com/learn_russian/498448.html).

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1.It has happened yesterday. (This is ungrammatical English).

I think you meant to say "It happened yesterday". - Only then is it a completed action in the sense you evidently mean to convey.

2. "It will happen tomorrow" - I think the Russian intention is to highlight that by using "tomorrow" in English, we imply that the action will start and end tomorrow, thus making this an example of the Russian view of what is "perfective". Never quite saw it that way, thanks for pointing that out. (Although, in English we would be just as likely to say, "It's happening tomorrow". - So I guess examples of "perfective" do not include English continuous tenses." To understand the Russian "perfective", it seems that it is better to view it from the perspective of English simple tenses, such as simple past or simple future, but not simple present, as simple present has no defined end and is therefore likely to be a case of "imperfective".)

"It is happening now" - Here, it seems that the Russian perspective focuses on the fact that when the action will end remains unspecified. (The English continuous tense is the clue here.)

In view of the above given explanations from a native speaking Russian's perspective, I gather that Russian differentiates between "actions with a predefined end" and "actions without a predefined end". Actions with a predefined end are described using "perfective verbs" and actions without a predefined end are described using "imperfective verbs."

Based on this perspective, "быть", for example, cannot be a perfective verb, as it lacks the attribute of a "predefined end".

Thus it seems that "быть" also fills the roles of English - "being" or German "seiend".

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I am sorry but "It has happened yesterday" is not "ungrammatical English", it is an absolutely legitimate construction called "present perfect tense". Please look it up in an English grammar book if you don't believe me.

"Based on this perspective, "быть", for example, cannot be a perfective verb, as it lacks the attribute of a "predefined end".
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Yes, something like that. However, I would be very careful in looking for analogies in other languages because they may be treacherous. And yes, English simple present can (or even should) be translated with Russian imperfective verbs.

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siberian-cat.livejournal.com

Sorry, you are completely wrong (http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2527/presentperfect.html). "The most important thing to remember about the present perfect is that it can never be used with adverbs which describe finished time periods, such as yesterday, five minutes ago and at three o'clock. If a time adverb is used with the present perfect, it should describe a time period which is unfinished."

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Well, maybe not completely. You can drop "yesterday", it is not crucial for my example.

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It is the "yesterday" in "It has happened yesterday" that makes it sound very stilted. "It has happened before" is better.

To use with "yesterday", the past perfect works much better:
"It had happened yesterday".

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Oh, OK then. "It has happened" works equally well for my example. "It had happened", on the other hand, does not convey the meaning of perfectiveness, because "it" may have happened several times and then it would not be a perfective in Russian.

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Yup, I know "it had happened" doesn't work in the perfective example, I was merely using it for an example in which one could include "yesterday".

Yesteday, all my troubles seemed so far away.....

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Sorry, but in English "It has happened" is not a completed action, we do not use present perfect to describe a completed action. "It happened" is a completed action, i.e. simple past. In the case of "it has happened", it is evident that the action either continues into the present or its effects continue into the present requiring some action from us.

In Russian we would in either case say "Это произошло" - That is, we would use a perfective verb. Russian DOES NOT differentiate between simple past and present perfect.

Russian tenses and aspects do not correspond one-to-one with English tenses. It as wrong for an English native speaker to think so as it is for a Russian native speaker to do the same.

If we want to say "it is happening now", we cannot use the Russian perfective for the simple reason that the Russian perfective is used to describe either a future action or a past action. but not a present action. So, in this case, we must use an imperfective Russian verb, i.e. "Это происходит".

Russian has only one past tense. But two aspects. That is, imperfective - "происходило" and perfective - "произошло". Generally, the Russian imperfective past will correspond with an English past continuous tense. And a Russian perfective past will correspond with a non-continuous tense. The specific English tense used will depend on the Russian context.

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Present perfect: A tense used to describe an action started in the past and continuing (or whose evident effects continue) into the present.

Hence, common markers for present perfect are terms such as, this week; this month; this year; today; since; so far, etc.

Let's look at "this week". What we can say about this week is that it started several days ago, i.e. in the past, and continues into the present, i.e. this week is not over yet:

(So far this week) I have written three letters.

This is a typical sentence in the PRESENT PERFECT. For, it describes an action that started in the past (writing letters some time this week, may be yesterday or the day before) and continues into the present (I may yet write several more letter before the week is over).

We can never use the English PRESENT perfect to describe an action that was completed in the PAST. It is ungrammatical to do so. Even the name of the tense gives us some indication of this.

Common markers for past tense are terms such as, last week; last month; last year; yesterday.

Hence, "I wrote three letters last week". Last week is over and we are now in this week. Therefore, there is no more opportunity to write letters last week. We must write them this week.

"It HAS happened YESTERDAY" is therefore an ungrammatical English sentence. HAS - used to convey the present aspect of PRESENT PERFECT clashes with YESTERDAY, a clear marker for a PAST TENSE.

Based on what you've said above about "analogies", I'd simply point out that this cuts both ways.

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Thank you! I realize now that my original confusion was the result of my horrific textbook, which deceptively leads a learner to think that the если/когда clauses had a huge influence on the aspect of a verb.

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Indeed. There are a lot of confused textbooks and teachers out there that themselves lack proper understanding of the material. But that's life and will only serve to help you better appreciate a good textbook and a good teacher.

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Yup! I didn't realize Russian was a difficult language to learn until my teacher left and was replaced by another. :(

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