aspect and tense in "когда" and "если" clauses

[chirashi-don.livejournal.com]

Hi! Would someone please explain if there is a certain "formula" when it comes to the tense and aspect of verbs in "когда" and "если" clauses?

examples: (would someone please clarify the verb's aspect (imperfective/perfective) and tense for me?)

If we go to St. Petersburg, we will visit Peter the Great's house.
Если мы поедем в Петербург, мы пойдём в Домик Петра Первого.
1. поедем: perfective future
2. пойдём: perfective future

If I talk to her, I will ask when we can meet.
Если я буду с ней говорить, я спрошу, когда мы встреимся.
1. буду говорить: imperfective future
2. спрошу: perfective future

When you see your parents, tell them hello.
Когда ты увидишь своих родителей, передай им привет.
1. увидишь: perfective future
2. переай: perfective future

When we are in Moscow, we will see your friends.
Когда мы будем в Москве, мы встретимся с вашими друзьями.
1. будем: perfective future
2. встретимся: perfective future

If I get tired of living in the dorm, I will rent an apartment.
Если мне надоест жить в общежитии, я сниму квартиру.
1. надоест: perfective future
2. сниму: perfective future

If he apologizes, I will forgive him.
Если он извинится, я с ним помирюсь.
1. извинится: perfective future
2. помирюсь: perfective future

If we had more time, we would have met with them. (But we didn't have time)
Если бы у нас было больше времени, мы бы с ними встретились. (Но времени не было)
1. было: perfective past
2. встретились: perfective past

If she had apologized, I would have forgiven her. (But she didn't apologize)
Если бы она извинилась, я бы с ней помирилась. (Но она не извинилась)
1. извинилась: perfective past
2. помирилась: perfective past





Ok, so other than the second example, it seems like they all use the perfective future, or in the last two examples, the perfective past. I'm wondering: is the imperfective future and the perfective future interchangeable in the rest of the sentences? If not, is there a rule that I can remember so as not to get them mixed up when writing "если" and "когда" clauses?

THANK YOU!

Comments

[platonicus.livejournal.com]

In (1) I should use 'сходим' instead of 'пойдем'

[oryx_and_crake]

Not necessarily, why? Both will work here.

[platonicus.livejournal.com]

For me it just sounds more naturally, though "пойдем" is possible too.

[oryx_and_crake]

I don't agree that "сходим" sounds more natural than "пойдем". In this context both are equally possible.

[platonicus.livejournal.com]

All right.

[ssttrraauuss.livejournal.com]

посетим (?)

[oryx_and_crake]

Imperfective and perfective future are not interchangeable, at least in some cases.
E.g. Когда он извинится, я с ним помирюсь.
But not "Когда он извиняется, я с ним помирюсь" - this is not acceptable.
However, you can say "Когда он извиняется, я с ним мирюсь" - this would mean repetitive action, i.e. something that happens on a regular basis.

Same in "Когда мы поедем в Санкт-Петербург, мы зайдем в домик Петра Великого." You cannot say "Когда мы едем (...) мы зайдем..." - this would be wrong. However you can say "Когда мы ездим в Санкт-Петербург, мы заходим в домик Петра Великого" - which again indicates that the action is habitual or repeating.

As to если and когда, I believe that, pretty much as in English, you would use если if you are not yet sure that the event in question will occur, and когда otherwise.

[platonicus.livejournal.com]

As for the question - I'm not sure, but as far as I understand (or, may be, feel) the choice between Pf. and Impf. here does not depend on 'or/when' neither on the real/unreal cases, but of the meaning of the verb. You can NOT say "Если мы будем ехать..., мы сходим..." or "Когда будешь видеть..., передай" (but "передавай" is possible here).

[oryx_and_crake]

btw I am not so sure that будем (example # 1) is perfective future.

The general rule is, if you speak of a perfective action, use a perfective form, otherwise use an imperfective.

E.g. Когда мы приедем, мы пойдем в музей.
Both приедем and пойдем are perfective.

Когда мы приедем, мы будем жить у моих друзей.
приедем - perfective, будем жить - imperfective

Когда мы будем в Санкт-Петербурге, мы остановимся у моих друзей.
будем - imperfective, остановимся - perfective

So you see, there is no general rule (unlike English "thou shalt not use future tense after "will"), you have to go by the verb's meaning and the phrase's general context.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Когда мы будем в Санкт-Петербурге, мы остановимся у моих друзей.
будем - imperfective, остановимся - perfective

I think the rule is "No will before future tense".

Therefore, in the above case, "When we ARE in St. Petersburg, we will/shall stay with my friends."

[oryx_and_crake]

Sorry, I don't understand. Is this in any way relevant to Russian sentence structure?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

In the context of your example sentence, "когда мы будем" should be translated as "when we are".

1. Your postulated English rule seems to imply that in this case "будем" equals "will".

2. That is wrong and has the potential to mislead other native Russian speakers of English, as well as confuse English learners of Russian about the function of "будем".

[oryx_and_crake]

I did not postulate anything at all. I said that in this case Russian does not have any rules or principles unlike English, that has some hard rules about sequence of tenses, e.g. this rule about not having future tense after "will". You can use either perfective or imperfective future, or present, or past, or imperative depending on what suits your context. I was not translating English sentense into Russian and I had no intentions of implying that any Russian word "equals" any English word.

[moon-aka-sun.livejournal.com]

> If he apologizes, I will forgive him.
> Если он извинится, я с ним помирюсь.

I've been thinking for some time why I don't like "помирюсь". Childish? Kinda. Rarely used? Yes, that's too. But now I think the real reason why it's wrong here, is because the verb relates rather to both sides, when both sides feel guilty and want to fix the relations. Then "мы помиримся" would be good. In your case, I think there must be "я его прощу" which is - surprise! - a direct translation from English. The same about "Если бы она извинилась..."

[noser.livejournal.com]

> 2. передай: perfective future

It's actually an imperative. I don't think imperatives have tense.

> 1. будем: perfective future

Correction: imperfective. Perfective is побудем (though побываем is more appropriate here).

> is the imperfective future and the perfective future interchangeable in the rest of the sentences?

No, the meaning becomes different. Если/когда+Imperfective before the comma means "whenever something happens". E.g. "Если мне надоедает жить в общежитии, я снимаю квартиру." means "Whenever I get tired of living in the dorm, I rent an apartment." Note that the tense is now present both in Russian and in English.

[noser.livejournal.com]

Just to avoid confusion: number 4 is correct, even though будем is imperfective.

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

Maybe offtopic, but i thought it could be useful.
You may also use imperfective present, e.g:
Приезжаешь в Петербург и идешь в домик Петра I.
Though it's present, it's considered to the future. It also means "When you come to St. Petersburg, you will visit Peter the Great's house". This turn of speech is used when giving instructions to someone, so it's a form of imperative mode.

[constpd.livejournal.com]

There is actually no rule and no pattern here. It's just a fact/action vs. process/repetition thing - depending on what you want to express and both parts of the sentence live independently here.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

If we had more time, we would have met with them. (But we didn't have time)

1. If you realy want to state that you did not have time, then this sentence needs to read:

HAD we HAD more time, we would have have met (with) them. (That is to say, we didn't have time)

(I think the version "If we HAD HAD more time" is also possible, but that's very awkward and should be avoided.

2. If you stick with "if we had more time", then you need to continue with "we would meet (with) them."

In any case, I think the Russian translation given matches your intented statement, i.e. we didn't have time.

Если бы у нас было больше времени, мы бы с ними встретились. (Но времени не было)
1. было: perfective past
2. встретились: perfective past

[oryx_and_crake]

было is imperfective

было vs бывало

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

The example with "было - perfective" was provided by the author of this thread. Neither did I edit nor address that point in my above contribution.

Glad, though, that you caught it at this point.

Now, if you say that "было" is imperfective, what do you say about "бывало"?

For example, I may sometimes have said, "Я там был", only to be corrected as follows - "Я там бывал".

Му understanding has been that I am to use "был" if I was there once. But "бывал" if I was there on several occasions.

So, this leads me to think that "был" can be perfective and that "бывал" would be its imperfective counterpart.

Please expound on this if you will.

Re: было vs бывало

[oryx_and_crake]

"Я там бывал" means that you have been there several times (repetitive or habitual action).
"Я там был" can be anything (once or several times), it does not imply repetition nor does it exclude it.

The verb быть is not perfective. Когда мы были в Санкт-Петербурге... means a period of time which has some length, not a momental completed action.

Re: было vs бывало

[joliecanard.livejournal.com]

"Я там был" can mean that you've been there on one or several occasions. It doesn't realy contain information about once/multiple times.
I think that быть is both imperfective and perfective.

Re: было vs бывало

[oryx_and_crake]

I daresay a verb cannot be imperfective and perfective at the same time. The verbs have distinct traits which make them either one or the other. Быть is imperfective.

Re: было vs бывало

[joliecanard.livejournal.com]

It can be aspectless.

Re: было vs бывало

[oryx_and_crake]

Maybe, but I cannot think of an example in Russian. Быть is clearly not aspectless.

Re: было vs бывало

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

It may be a "ghost" of the Indo-European stative aspect. But I agree that it's definitely not perfective, and thus imperfective at least by exclusion.

Re: было vs бывало

[oryx_and_crake]

P.S. The example with "было - perfective" is clearly an erroneous one and I commented on it. Other people have found other problems with it (e.g. передай is called a future perfective, however it is not a future tense at all).

"бой был жарким"

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

All right. So let's agree that "было" is imperfective. And I don't doubt for an instant that it is. You still need to make a solid case to demonstrate that it is in fact imperfective.

So far, none of the arguments provided have been convincing, as they could all be equally applied to a perfective verb.

For example, let's take the aspect pair - "делать - сделать"

"Мы их сделали" can be anything (once or several times), it does not imply repetition nor does it exclude it.
"Мы их делали" means that you have done them several times (repetitive or habitual action).

Also, how do we know that "бывать" is not the imperfective aspect of "быть"?

For example, "Завтра я там буду." - I will be there tomorrow. Here "быть" behaves like a typical perfective verb, i.e. it is not used in the present tense, and in its simple conjugation, it has a meaning that refers to the future.

Compare, "Я часто там бываю." - I am often there. This looks very much as if it were the imperfective aspect of a "perfective" быть.

It would be great if you could provide your own convincing evidence to demonstrate that "быть" is not perfective, but imperfective.

Here are some more examples of "быть" vs "бывать" where the former certainly behaves as if it were the perfective aspect of the latter:

бывает и хуже - worse things happen
будет и хуже - worse will happen

в жизни всё бывает - that's life
в жизни всё будет - in life everything will be

бывать в хорошем обществе - keep good company
быть в хорошем обществе - to be in good company.

Also,

бой был жарким - the battle was hotly contested (looks like a perfective verb)

бой бывал жарким - (sentence make no sense, as we are speaking of a single battle at a paricular point in time. We should use the perfective aspect to describe this. See "бой был жарким")

Re: "бой был жарким"

[oryx_and_crake]

1. I don't have to "provide a convincing evidence". I am a native speaker, remember? I just happen to know whether a verb is perfective or not, and you can take it or leave it. You can either believe me or look it up in the dictionary or go on believing that it is perfective, for all I care. However I will explain for the benefit of others.

2. The mere fact that a verb has a future tense does not make it perfective. The fact that the verb signifies a complete action does. Быть (which means "to be") is not a complete action. It signifies a state of, if I may say so, being.

3. A sure sign of a verb being perfective is its lack of present tense - by definition, because a completed action can either having been completed in the past or be going to be completed in the future, but it cannot take a prolonged moment in present. The verb быть does have a present tense. Therefore it cannot be a perfective.

Now to your examples. I am not going to look at the English translations because these are misleading, the grammar and tense structure of the language being different.

будет и хуже
в жизни всё будет
быть в хорошем обществе
бой был жарким
None of these are perfective because none of these signify a completed action.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

reaLLy

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

In literary language, the imperative form can be used as past subjunctive:

Будь у нас больше времени, мы бы с ними встретились.
Извинись она, я бы с ней помирилась.

It's hardly ever used in the vernacular.