Кто vs. который and a declension question

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

In Russian translation, a lot of the time that I would use the word “who”, “which”, or “that”, I've been instructed to use «который» instead of «кто» or «что». Under what circumstances would I use «кто/что»?

[edit:] Also, what does one with a feminine noun like «студентка» when one declines it in the plural genitive? With ones like «планета», I know that it's declined to «планет», but «студентк» seems rather difficult to pronounce. Does one just pronounce «студентк», or is there some other rule for nouns of this sort?

Comments

[piggy-toy.livejournal.com]

студенток.

[piggy-toy.livejournal.com]

actually, it's either -ок or -ек.
шапка - шапок
ложка - ложек
кошка - кошек

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

Спасибо. That helps a lot. :)

[piggy-toy.livejournal.com]

на здоровье :)

i guess it must be -ек after ж, ц, ч, ш, щ (is there a word on -щка? - don't think so) and -ок after all the rest.

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

Yeah, that's the pattern I was thinking of. I guess it's sort of opposite to words like «подарок». I'll have to use that as an explanation if anyone asks me where the «о» in «подарок» goes.

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

The real explanation is that there used to be yers (reduced vowels) in these suffixes, so they would be подарЪкЪ and студентЪка (that particular word presumably hadn't yet been borrowed at that time, but no matter). When the yers disappeared, the rule (universal for all Slavic languages) was that, if you count backwards from the end of the word, then odd yers disappeared and even ones became a full vowel. If the sequence of yers breaks (with a full-vowel syllable), you reset the count. This explains сЪнЪ => сон, but сЪна => сна, etc.etc., and our hypothetical студентЪка => студентЪкЪ.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_commonsense_/]

oh my god :)

[philena.livejournal.com]

Ahh, good old Havlik's law.

[vimvim.livejournal.com]

you could use "что" in positioning an object in toponymic context:
"кафе, что на Чистых Прудах", "Старый Цирк, что на Цветном Бульваре".
it would sound a bit old-moscow-fassion but intellingent

you can use "кто" when setting conditions:
"а кто будет жульничать, будет получать по морде, по наглой рыжей морде", or when you use "те" before:
"я часто вспоминаю своих соседей, тех, кто жил тогда со мной в одном дворе" in a sort of more detailed description following an object. The same is for "что" as well
"Как назывался маленький город с большой крепостью, тот, что мы проезжали позавчера?". Sometimes you can use it to play with a rhythm and to give an impression of a kind of verbal speech...

[http://users.livejournal.com/_commonsense_/]

on the other hand you can ALWAYS use "который" and you won't be mistaken.

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

Point taken. I'll err on the side of caution and use который.

[agent-al.livejournal.com]

Quote: In Russian translation, a lot of the time that I would use the word “who”, “which”, or “that”, I've been instructed to use «который» instead of «кто» or «что». Under what circumstances would I use «кто/что»?
"который" used in questions, when is necessary to point one person from large group. Yes, "кто" could be used instead, but "который" makes sentence to sound much purposefully. Like:
- Which one of them broke his toy? (Который из них сломал его игрушку?)
- Who broke his toy? (Кто сломал его игрушку?)
"Который" also could be used as confirmation request for somekind of information.
Like:
A: - That one broke Mike's toy. (Вот этот сломал игрушку Миши)
B: - The one who wears red T-shirt? (Тот, который одет в красную майку?)
"Который(ая)" also could be used to artificial objects, such as towel, for example:
A: - Bring me blue towel from kitchen, please. (Принеси мне синее полотенце с кухни, пожалуйста)
B: - Which one is lying on the table? (Которое лежит на столе?)
You also can use "кто" or "что" here (Что лежит на столе?) - but saying that you have to make intonation on "столе" like asking "that, which one is laying on the table" but not asking "what is placed on the table".
Well, almostly in all times you can use "кто" or "что" instead "который" and otherwise. I can't formulate or remember example, when you cannot replace "который" with these words totally disturbing main context of the sentence.

[katiroma.livejournal.com]

There are many cases of plural genitive.
For feminin nouns of the 1st declination group (those einding with "-a") the gen.pl. ending is void (планета - планет, женщина - женщин) or, if there's a suffix "к", you insert "o" or "e" before it (коляска - колясок, варежка - варежек).
For feminin nouns ending with "-я" it's a bit more complicated.
семьЯ - семЕй,
кУхня - кУхонь,
дерЕвня - деревЕнь.

"подарок" - is masculin, and in this case gen.pl. is normally "-ов", where "o" jumps over "к" (подарков). However, there are exceptions such as:
один сапог - пара сапог.

Sorry, if it sounds too complicated.

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

Thank you.

And don't worry—if I were going to stop learning a language because it was too complicated, I would've given up on Russian ages ago. ;)

[philena.livejournal.com]

It sounds as if the кто/который dilemma you're running into is also one of relative clauses. For example, you want to say, "Look at the man who visited me yesterday," as "Посмотри на человека, кто зашел у меня вчера," when in fact you should use "который зашел у меня вчера." In this situation, the relative pronoun который refers back to a noun, человек. If the relative pronoun refers back to another pronoun, however, then you can use кто. So you can say "Look at everyone who visited me yesterday" as "Посмотри на всех, кто зашел у меня вчера," because "все", "everyone" is a pronoun, not a noun. (The verb can agree either with the singular кто or with the plural все.)

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much. I had sort of given up on ever using кто/что … thank you for clearing up when it should be used.

[thespinningone.livejournal.com]

"на всех, кто зашёл КО МНЕ вчера". unfortunately you can't say "зашёл у меня" =)

[philena.livejournal.com]

Thanks!. I knew кто/который, but not the rest, evidently.

[thespinningone.livejournal.com]

that's ok. you're welcome =)

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

What is the pattern for «ко» vs. «к» and «во/в»?

[thespinningone.livejournal.com]

as far as i could find out, there's no set rule for this. books on phonology explain that using such prepositions as ко, во, ото, подо etc. instead of the usual forms depends on your habits and whether you like how your phrase sounds or not.

still, a general recommendation is that you'd better add the vowel "о" if the word after the preposition starts with two or more consonants. but again, there're too many counter-examples. like, "щ" can count for 2 consonants as well ("во щах" or "в щах"), while "с", "з", "в" in the first position, and "р","л","м", н" in the second may not matter ("с примером", "к сметане", "в здании", but "со дна", "во сне", "ко сну").