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learn_russianI have an assignment to do a close reading of Boris Pasternak's Гамлет, and I've come across something that I don't get at all. Авва Отче, is that a person? If so, who? I've run searches, but all I'm finding are reproductions of the poem itself.
A friendly nudge in the right direction would be useful. A shove would be even more appreciated. :)
A friendly nudge in the right direction would be useful. A shove would be even more appreciated. :)
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Date: 2006-04-05 12:52 am (UTC)Это выражение, происходящее из арамейского языка, сохранилось в греческом оригинале Евангелия от Марка (14, 36). Оно появляется на страницах Евангелия в тех случаях, когда Иисус обращается к Отцу.
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Date: 2006-04-05 01:02 am (UTC)Also, (to keep this more focused on Russian) the fact that the English has the second word of the phrase translated as "father," and the fact that in Russian it looks like отец makes me wonder whether that might just be an archaic vocative form of отец. From my knowledge of Old Church Slavonic, I do believe that that is what the vocative would look like.
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Date: 2006-04-05 01:17 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-05 09:30 am (UTC)Cite?
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Date: 2006-04-05 10:00 am (UTC)http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hebrew_language#Coexistence_with_Aramaic
They're languages of the same northwest semitic group, and coexisted for centuries literally intertwined, so they simply had to be very similar.
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Date: 2006-04-05 01:36 pm (UTC)Romanian and Italian are both Eastern Romance languages, yet they are not mutually intelligible. Ukrainian and Russian are both East Slavonic languages, yet Russians so often complain about the difficulty of understanding anything said in a Ukrainian utterance. If you claim that two languages are mutually intelligible based on such a criterion, then you should have strong proof to support it.
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Date: 2006-04-05 08:40 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-05 08:43 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-05 10:49 pm (UTC)I knew you would say so. ;) However, recent peer review by "Nature" revealed that despite all its flaws, number in errors in Wikipedia is comparable with Encyclopaedia Britannica....
Ukrainian and Russian are both East Slavonic languages, yet Russians so often complain about the difficulty of understanding anything said in a Ukrainian utterance.
Well, I don't know, but I NEVER had any major problem understanding Ukrainian or Bulgarian, and can understand most of phrases in Polish, Czech and Serbian, if spoken slowly...
If you claim that two languages are mutually intelligible based on such a criterion, then you should have strong proof to support it.
Unfortunately, I cannot remember, where I've heard it -- probably from some Israeli friends, but I'm not sure. We may ask some Hebrew-speaking people here, anyway.
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Date: 2006-04-06 02:01 pm (UTC)Who cares? Encyclopedias in general are not sources. They are quick-reference items for personal use. If you want to support an assertion you make to another person, then the only appropriate citations are journals or monographs.
The vast majority of Russian speakers with whom I have discussed the issue say there is no mutual intelligibility between Russian and Ukrainian, let alone between Russian and the West Slavonic or South Slavonic languages. I'm interested in formal research on the matter, I shall look for information later today in my university library.
The opinions of modern Israelis speaking modern Hebrew doesn't relate to the matter contended, which is whether the Aramaic-speaking inhabitants of Judaea during the time of Christ could understand spoken Hebrew without special training.
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Date: 2006-04-06 04:52 pm (UTC)2. Again, I might be an exception, but I freely understand Ukrainian, Belarussian and Bulgarian -- I couldn't speak, but I could understand them. Well, my father IS Ukrainian, but he'd never spoken any Ukrainian at home, and I never took any special education in language.
3. See. above. Also there were evidence supporting theory that BOTH languages were actually live spoken languages wide in use in Judea, so people could simply knew both of them.
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Date: 2006-04-05 01:39 am (UTC)Father in Hebrew is "Av". Those are related words.
Since Aramaic and Hebrew have a lot in common, and since Jews in Jesus times used spoke Aramaic in everyday life, a lot of Aramaic words made their way into Hebrew.
The word Abba in modern Hebrew means "Dad" (as opposed to "Av"-"Father").
There is one peculiar thing, related to this word.
The name Barabbas (the criminal or rebel who was supposedly pardoned by Pilate) actually means Son of the Father (Bar-Abba) in Aramaic.
Earlier evangelical sources also state that his first name was Jesus (which was deleted in later editions).
So it looks like there were two prisoners at the same time: Jesus the Messiah (Christos) and Jesus Son of the Father (which sounds like Son of God).
There are numerous theories trying to explain that.
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Date: 2006-04-05 04:52 pm (UTC)Ohhhh.
Date: 2006-04-05 01:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-05 02:15 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2006-04-05 06:08 am (UTC)And he said, Abba, Father, all things are possible unto thee; take away this cup from me: nevertheless not what I will, but what thou wilt.
The difference between Abba and Avva comes from the difference in how the Greek letter "beta" is pronounced in Ancient Greek and in New Greek. Russian Orthodox Bible was translated from Greek in the newer times when "beta" was actually "veeta".
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Date: 2006-04-05 02:30 pm (UTC)way off topic...
Date: 2006-04-05 02:33 pm (UTC)Re: way off topic...
Date: 2006-04-05 02:37 pm (UTC)Re: way off topic...
Date: 2006-04-05 02:39 pm (UTC)Re: way off topic...
Date: 2006-04-05 02:48 pm (UTC)http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0073099/