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[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

I have a question: I'm currently doing research on Stalin and what went on during his reign and there's something that seems to conflict: It is said that all the killings and murders and acts that Stalin did did not go unnoticed, yet I'm reading from a book that upon his death, so many people went to his funeral that a great number were crushed to death. Also, in 1984 there was a poll taken by a British correspondent that revealed that there was a high opinion of him. So... I don't quite understand this. Anyone care to explain?

Comments

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[ex-ex-zhuzh.livejournal.com]

You have to understand that Russian people (surprise!) are not a uniform bunch. While many quietly hated Stalin, many others sincerely loved him and some still do. Of the latter, some think that the killings were exaggerrated by Western propaganda, others think killing all those people was the right thing to do, still others think it was a high but necessary price to pay for the industrialisation. See, there are more colours than black and white.

Now, you've mentioned a 1984 poll and I wonder if that date rings a bell in connection with Stalin…

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[mricon.livejournal.com]

What does this have to do with Russian language?

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[soidisantfille.livejournal.com]

That is a multi-faceted question, and I don't think you're going to get a succinct answer here.

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[gera.livejournal.com]

There is a vast difference between "did not go unnoticed" and "were widely known". Of course everyone was aware of the purges, but most people assumed that those who were persecuted were guilty as hell.
The people were heavily brainwashed from dawn to dusk for nearly 30 years, lead to believe that Stalin was some kind of deity.
There was no official talk about any lawlessness under his rule until 1956, three years after his death and even then it was a secret report of Khrushchev to party Central Committee.
Of course, at his death most people did not have a clue about what really had been going on.
Today he is appreciated mostly by old farts communist die-hards and some young nuts.

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[ekeme-ndiba.livejournal.com]

However, despite all the atrocities, he was the only 20th century Russian leader who handed down sorta more or less positive legacy. That's the thing no one can deny.

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[oryx_and_crake]

May I ask what do you mean by "positive legacy"?

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[malaya-zemlya.livejournal.com]

The most positive legacy was left by Konstantin Chernenko. He didn't do anything at all.

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[gera.livejournal.com]

Huh? Like what?

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[ekeme-ndiba.livejournal.com]

Solid residual (voluntary and/or involuntary): industralized economy, advanced science schools (we still live on), victory in the WWII, purged Leninist butchers, more or less revived Church.

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[gera.livejournal.com]

Victory in WWII was thanks to Stalin? :)
The person who signed a deal with Hitler and trusted him till the very invasion more than any people and evidence suggesting the impending attack?
The person who ran away with a nervous breakdown in the first days of the war? The person who decimated all the most talented military cadre before the war?
Who permeated the military with snitches and incompetent idiots? Who would send people to battle without arms and ammunition, who would sacrifice soldiers by tens of thousands for nothing, who would command his own military to shoot at the backs of his own soldiers lest they run away?
It is pretty obvious that if it wasn't for Stalin, the war could be won at a far smaller price or, perhaps, prevented.
Don't forget that it was Stalin's stupid policy toward German social democrats what help Hitler to seize power.
Also, Leninist butchers were real vegetarians compared with Stalin's butchers, especially with himself. There's something completely absurd in seeing the former as butchers and the latter as the ones who punished them.
The former, at least, did it mostly for idealistic reasons, while the latter (especially Stalin himself) did it for personal power.
As to his "industrialized economy" built on slave labor, this is also the kind of legacy Hitler left in Germany. This is hardly what he is remembered for.

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[ex-eugzol340.livejournal.com]

Wow.
I'm sorry for my bad English.
Victory in WWII was thanks to Stalin? :)
Sure it was.
The person who signed a deal with Hitler and trusted him till the very invasion more than any people and evidence suggesting the impending attack?
Did you know, that he did want, as you say, sign a deal, with Britain at first? But when British ambassadors arrived it was found out that they haven't any credentials that British government had to give them. The could not sign any mutual assistance pact or any important treaty at all. Of course in such a situation Stalin had to join another aliance, becaurse Soviet Union was to weak at the moment and couldn't stay alone.
The person who ran away with a nervous breakdown in the first days of the war?
Ran away? Retreat sounds better. Did you know, that Hitler said, that if he would known that German army would reveive such a large negative profit at first two weeks of the War he would not attack a Soviet Union.
The person who decimated all the most talented military cadre before the war?
All the talented military cadre was royal. If you want to win a war you must be absolutly sure in you military cadre. In that cadre he can't be sure at all.
Who permeated the military with snitches and incompetent idiots?
That idiots won a war.
Who would send people to battle without arms and ammunition
Oh yeah, it was better to surrender. But not for us.
who would sacrifice soldiers by tens of thousands for nothing
if you want to win a war, you must not to think about life of soldiers. It was a difficult economical situation in the country, so, it is terrible, but there were not any other ways to win.
who would command his own military to shoot at the backs of his own soldiers lest they run away?
It's funny. Imagine such a situation. You're a soldier standing in a battle field against the enemy of your country and your nation. And suddenly you get known, that few members of НКВД (i don't know translation of this abbreviation) is staing behind you and waiting when you will run. I'm quite sure that such a soldier think that this is an insult for him. He belive in the idea and for that idea, for freedom, for family and for motherland he will sacrifice his life any thoughts. So he and his comrades-in-arms will just go back and will kill that НКВД's. There are many soldiers and they have better ammunition then the НКВД's members so they will have a success.
It is pretty obvious that if it wasn't for Stalin, the war could be won at a far smaller price or, perhaps, prevented.
Hm. Maybe it could be prevnted. But in that case it might be no Russia on our territory. There would be only a state of Great German.
As to his "industrialized economy" built on slave labor
What you are talking about? Prisoners' labour isn't slave labour. I think they were happpy that they were not executed by shoooting.

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[oryx_and_crake]

I am sorry but I think that this is enough for the purposes of this community; please take your dialog elsewhere (e.g. in your personal LJ). You can provide a link here if you wish.

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[ex-eugzol340.livejournal.com]

Yes of course, i completely agree with your decision :)
There is no need of link :)

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[temcat.livejournal.com]

Riiiight, let's forget about the price it was achieved at. I don't want industrialisation if it requires killing one innocent human. Stalin killed millions.

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[ex-eugzol340.livejournal.com]

the price is sovereignty of our country

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[vedma.livejournal.com]

also i think everyone was scared to death of him and could not say anything wrong agaist him.

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[ex-eugzol340.livejournal.com]

Such a leader as Хрущёв (i don't know transiliteration of this name, possible Khrushev) was destroing "cult of personality" of Stalin. It was less then ten years after his death. There were many "wrong words" said about him.

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[taosu.livejournal.com]

Some people were crushed to death because they thought that the next leader might be even worse that Stalin himself.

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[oryx_and_crake]

The keyword is "1984" (I don't mean the poll you mentioned but the book by Orwell).
He shows pretty well how the people's minds should have been working in such situations.

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[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Oh, oops. I misread. Here's the quote:

A former Soviet sociologist, Viktor Zaslavsky, has noted that 'a very large number of Soviet workers have a very positive opinion of Stalin and his record.' This seemed to be confirmed by a British correspondent who visited Georgia in 1984 and reported that in that year over a million people visited the museum in Stalin's birthplace, Gori.

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[oryx_and_crake]

There is a certain category of people who want to think that somewhere, sometime, there was a "Golden Age". They want simple solutions because they do not understand that life is complicated. They also want to believe in a "kind and just tsar" or at least that there ever was one. Hence, life is bad (and life is always bad if you want to prove that it is so) because there are (or were) some bad people, sabotagers and enemies who wanted to harm simple industrious folks. And the good tsar tried to punish those, but there were more bad people who killed the good tsar. Here you are. By the way, people who are workers now were born around 1940-1950 (the retirement age is 60 for men, 55 for women) and were children when Stalin died. They just cannot remember how it all was because they did not witness it.

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[zhp.livejournal.com]

In Georgia, I believe, people had a deep respect for Stalin because he originally came from there. They say, in the 80s some people in Georgia still had Stalin's portraits in their homes. As for the rest of the country, first of all, all people are different, and different people had different opinions of him. Secondly, many people who were aware of the purges and who believed that the purges were wrong, unfair etc. were convinced that this had nothing to do with Stalin himself, that it was done by various government officials without Stalin being aware of the fact. The propaganda was really powerful, many people really believed that they owed to Stalin everything good they had in their lives.

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[ex-eugzol340.livejournal.com]

they owed to Stalin everything good they had in their lives
but as my parents say they really did

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[ex-eugzol340.livejournal.com]

i mean not really owed but really had may goods in their lifes =)

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[oranta.livejournal.com]

Stalin was hated mostly by intellectuals and peasants. My mother's family (Moscow workers) ignored completely the Stalin repressions. But they were overfilled by the Soviet propaganda about free education and medicine, full employment etc... And their tears after the death of Stalin were sincer.

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[arestoktra.livejournal.com]

i'm taking a course on Central Asia and we dealt quite a lot about Stalin including many movies as a bonus for the lecture. our lecturer said us that people we such drama lovers in central asia and Russia so that's the main reason to mourn after him and also that was a chance to be together and united with other comrades

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[arestoktra.livejournal.com]

by the way if you need any help for your research we dealt a lot with Stalin.

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[sinee-solnce.livejournal.com]

Stalin was the "beacon", the symbol of happy life, the Soviet citizen #1. Actually, in comparison to the amount of people,who were repressed or were about to be repressed (inteligencia, people in charge), the amount of "worker-peasant" people, quite safe, was really enormous. Great. He was actually loved by all people. Fear is love-in this certain case.

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[ex-eugzol340.livejournal.com]

I think, the moderators have to remove this post becaurse it is not rely to learning of russian

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[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

So am I not allowed to learn Russian history? Opinions? Learning Russian does not deal with language only, it also deals with culture. You don't know "Russian" until you've gone beyond the language. That is what I'm trying to accomplish.

Besides, this is the only community in which a) large number of Russians and b) quick, friendly replies.

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[oryx_and_crake]

You've got a point, but, on the other hand, this is a very controversial issue and the answers may become too quick and not so friendly. I am keeping an eye on that.

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[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

2nded. As the one in the Eastern hemisphere I'm about to go to bed, but I'm still keeping... well, two eyes.
I'm not going to comment myself, though, or this dicussion is finally going to convert into a bloody mess.

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[ex-eugzol340.livejournal.com]

i'm agree

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[ex-eugzol340.livejournal.com]

This is not a community related to hisroty, and, as i see, there aren't any qualified specialists in this sphere here. All the discussion is coming to sharing of subjective opinions, without facts at all.

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[shariperkins.livejournal.com]

I am reading a book called Lenin's Tomb which is quite fascinating . . . though I am not yet sure how biased it is.

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[kara-karina.livejournal.com]

Guys, you are surprising me! There are actually people who believe that Stalin was great for this country.. Well done! Let me say: always judge politicians for their deals not words. Stalin - myth and Stalin - reality are two different things. Of course people were crying when he died. If all your conscious life you're told that white is black, then when you see white you'll say "black" - that was what happened to people. Stalin's political and economical decisions put our country 50 years back in time and we still feel it.. Millions of people were murdered, and that was the genofoundation (генофонд)of the nation.Best scientists, best militaries, talented authors, teachers.. It reminds me "cultural revolution" in China. To call it a right decision?On the edge of war, when we didn't have higher officer ranks to understand orders, no tactics, no strategy?..It was chaos. He was a product of revolution, one of the spiders in a tin who had to kill others to survive. he was the strongest and the most charismatic, but not the most clever from the old team. Oh whatever! I'll better stop myself, it leads to nothing. Have a good night, everyone!
P.S. Tt's quite interesting, that Russians passionately love politics, watch all the news, talk about it. We have a joke, that there are different degrees of drunkinness - first we talk about sport, women/men, sex, and when we are dead drunk we talk about politicians..:)

[sphinges.livejournal.com]

Same reason people worshipped FDR even though he abolished the private ownership of gold, took away civil liberties in wartime (which nobody could get away with today), moved us towards socialism with policies like the New Deal, was a Democrat in an era when Southern Racists voted Democrat, possibly let Pearl Harbor happen, suggested that the Jewish refugees should be "resettled" in Venezuela Ethiopia or West Africa, set up Japanese internment camps, &c. Wartime leaders (think George Washington, Abraham Lincoln) are fondly remembered, whether they deserve it or not.