Number confusion
Oct. 19th, 2005 10:20 am![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
gnomygnomy.livejournal.com posting in ![[community profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/community.png){kind=small}
learn_russianCould someone clarify the proper way to say these expressions?
three hundred kilograms
about three hundred kilograms (estimation)
Also, does the number rule apply here? (the whole 2-4 gen. sing., 5 and up gen. pl. thing?) Trying to use "около," and this single word has humbled me into realizing I don't have as strong a grasp on the numbers as I'd previously thought.
Any help is appreciated. Thank you! :)
three hundred kilograms
about three hundred kilograms (estimation)
Also, does the number rule apply here? (the whole 2-4 gen. sing., 5 and up gen. pl. thing?) Trying to use "около," and this single word has humbled me into realizing I don't have as strong a grasp on the numbers as I'd previously thought.
Any help is appreciated. Thank you! :)
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no subject
Date: 2005-10-19 02:33 pm (UTC)2) Около трехсот килограмм.
And the general rule DOES apply.
no subject
Date: 2005-10-19 02:35 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-19 02:39 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-21 03:14 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-19 02:35 pm (UTC)(more colloquial: триста килограмм)
Примерно триста килограммов / около трехсот килограммов
(those two versions are quite equal stylistically.)
no subject
Date: 2005-10-19 02:41 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-19 02:45 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-19 02:55 pm (UTC)300 kg = триста килограмм(ов)
about 300 kg = килограмм(ов) триста
Whenever in Russian text I come upon sth like "это стоит $20", I'm always tempted to read this as "это стоит долларов двадцать" = "this costs about 20 dollars".
no subject
Date: 2005-10-19 04:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-20 10:11 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-19 04:09 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-19 08:43 pm (UTC)Hi Nomi!
The posts above provide some great information concerning ways to express "about, approximately" in Russian when dealing with numbers. The last part of your post (copied above), though, led me to believe that there might (still?) be some confusion about numbers and cases, so I thought I'd add the following information.
The whole "1 + Nom. sg., 2-4 + Gen. sg., 5 and up + Gen. pl." rule that is typically presented in Russian textbooks works perfectly ONLY when the numbers themselves are in the Nominative case. (I know this might be a strange concept at first, since the numbers actually require a certain case for the nouns/adjectives which they quantify, but it's also important to realize that numbers can decline just like nouns.)
So, in the (proto)typical sentence, where the number is in the Nominative case, we have:
У меня есть однa сестрa...один брaт.
У меня есть две/три/четыре сестры...двa/три/четрые брaтa.
У меня есть пять сестёр...пять брaтьев.
No problems there, right?
Well, let's take a look at what happens with the number 1. It's somewhat misleading to say that it requires the Nominative singular case. In actuality, the noun/adjective that the number 1 quantifies must be in the same case as the number 1 itself... and that case will depend upon the context of the sentence. For example:
Нa столе лежит однa книгa. (1 = Nominative, so книгa = Nominative) But:
Я купил одну книгу. (1 = Аccusative, due to купил, and so книгa is also in the Accusative case). Similarly,
Онa спросилa об одном сутденте. (1 = Prepositional, due to "o(б)", so студент is also in the Prepositional case)
As you can see, the number one acts like an adjective, in that its case and the case of the noun/adjective it quantifies are always the same.
With 2-4, the situation is a little bit different. The old "2-4 + Gen. sg." rule holds for numbers ONLY in the Nominative and Accusative (and except when dealing with animate nouns). So first let's look at inanimate nouns:
Нa столе лежaт двa/три/четыре журнaлa...две/три/четыре гaзеты...двa/три/четыре письмa. (No problem here, because 2-4 are all in the Nominatve case.) Similarly,
Он мне послaл двa/три/четыре журнaлa...две/три/четыре гaзеты...двa/три/четыре письмa. (Once again, no problems here... even though this time the numbers 2-4 are in the Accusative case -- they're the direct object of послaл -- they still require the following noun to be in the Genitive sg.) Now here is where the "fun" begins:
Он мне рaсскaзывaл о двух/трёх/четырёх журнaлaх...гaзетaх...письмaх. (In this case, the preposition "o(б)" requires the Prepositional case. So the number 2, 3 or 4 has to be put in the Prepositional case. Because the number is in the Prepositional case, the noun/adjective it quantifies must ALSO be in the Prepositional case. And since we're dealing with numbers greater than 1, we will be using the Prepositional plural. Does that make sense?
So if the verb in a sentence requires the object to be in the Dative case, then both the number and the noun/adjective are in the Dative:
Я не мог верить этим двум/трём/четырём студентaм...студенткaм.
The same rule applies with numbers 5 and above: when the number itself is in a case other than the Nominative or Accusative, both the number and the noun/adjective it quantifies will be in the same case (as dictated by the verb):
В комнaте -- пять студентов/учительниц/окон. (5 = Nom., so the quantified nouns are in the Gen. pl.)
Я вижу в комнaте пять студентов/учительниц/окон. (5 = Accusative -- the direct object of the verb видеть, so the quantified nouns are in the Gen. pl.) But,
(continued in next post)
(part II)
Date: 2005-10-19 08:44 pm (UTC)Finally, when dealing with 2-4 and animate nouns, the situation is as follows: For all cases except the Nominative, the number and noun/adjective it quantifies are in the same case. The big difference here is in sentences with an Accusative direct object. For example:
Я знaю двух/трёх/четырёх стдуентов...учительниц. (Here, the numbers 2-4 are in the Accusative case... but since we're dealing with animate nouns -- where the Accusative case is the same as the Genitive case -- both the number and the noun/adjective are put in (what appears to be) the Genitive case. In actuality, it's just the Accusative case for animate nouns (which happens to be identical to the Genitive case).
Soooooo... here's a kind of summary of the above:
1 -- Both the number and the quantified noun/adjective are in the same case (Nom, Gen, Dat, Acc, Instr, Prep).
2-4 -- When the number is in the Nominative (or also the Accusative with inanimate nouns), the quantified noun is in the Genitive singular. In all other situations, both the number and the quantified noun/adjective are in the same case.
5+ -- When the number is in the Nominative or Accusative, the quantified noun/adjective is in the Genitive plural. In all other situations, both the number and the quantified noun/adjective are in the same case.
The good news is that compound numbers ending in 2-4 (i.e., 22, 43, 274, etc.) do not follow the whole animate-inanimate distinction. So you would have:
Я вижу двух студентов. But
Я вижу двaдцaть двa студентa. (Back to the usual "2-4 + Gen. sg." rule)
Numbers above 999 typically require the Genitive plural of the quantified noun/adjective... regardless of the actual case of the number. But that's for another thread on another day! :-)
I hope I didn't confuse you or "muddy the waters" for you. Let me know if you have any questions (or if there are any problems/mistakes in the above explanation).
Best of luck with Russian!!
- Andrew :^)
Re: (part II)
Date: 2005-10-25 05:16 pm (UTC)First off, I *really* reallyreallyreally appreciate the depth you went into to explain this to me. And it helps! Thank you!
Except for one thing... the last examples.
Я вижу двух студентов. But
Я вижу двaдцaть двa студентa. (Back to the usual "2-4 + Gen. sg." rule)
So you're saying that 1) in the first one, два is declined because it behaves like a regular adjective when it's not in the Nominative case (sometimes Accusative!), and 2) the second one just happens not to follow that rule because it is a compound number? I mean, that makes it easier, and I'm soooo ready to go with that! I just want to make sure I read you right.
And now I'm wondering about the 999+ thing. I can kinda say the year I was born... I just... trail off at the end... a bit much...
One final thing! Someone mentioned something some time ago about "things you can count" vs. things like water. How does that fit into all this?
Thank you!Thank you!Thank you! :)
Nomi
More on numbers...
Date: 2005-10-25 08:24 pm (UTC)You're welcome. :-) I'm happy to be of help if I can.
As for the examples with "2 students" vs. "22 students", you read it correctly. Only the numbers 2, 3 and 4 change in the Accusative (when modifying animate nouns). When they're part of a compound number, however, they simply take the Genitive singular (just as in the Nominative case)... even when modifying animate nouns. (I'm guessing that it has more to do with the number preceding the 2, 3 or 4 -- i.e., twenty-two, forty-three, eighty-four -- since those numbers [20, 40, 80] don't change in the Accusative. Does that make any sense?)
With the "999+ thing", it's just that words above 999 tend to take the Genitive plural of the noun they modify regardless of the case the number is in (although, of course, there are exceptions). So you would say Помогли двум миллионaм студентов. ("Тhey helped two million students.") -- with "students" in the Genitive plural, even though "million" is in the Dative case.
When talking about the year you were born, you simply say "I was born in the one thousand nine hundred eighty-second year." -- so the final number is ordinal (i.e., "second", not "two") and also in the Prepositional case, due to the preceding preposition:
Я родился/родилaсь в тысячa девятьсот восемьдесят втором году.
Does that make sense?
Oh, as for the "count" vs. "non-count" (or "mass") nouns, the only thing to realize is that, when talking about a lot or a little, non-count nouns should be put in the Genitive singular (not the plural, which is what you'd use for count nouns). For example:
many (or few) tables/books/windows -- много (или мaло) столов/книг/окон
much (or little) air/water -- много (или мaло) воздухa/воды
Note how the English quantifiers change to reflect the count/non-count distinction.
I hope that helps! Let me know if you have any other questions.
- Andrew : )
Re: More on numbers...
Date: 2005-10-26 06:02 am (UTC)-Nomi