(no subject)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_trains__derail/]

hi guys.

i know this has probably been asked a bajillion times, but i simply can't understand it: the cases.

no matter how much effort i put into learning them, i can't do it. i never know which one to use in which situations and it's so frustrating. i've researched them a lot, but i think i'm just dumb.

can someone please explain them to me?

thanks in advance.

Comments

Alas.

[ex-ex-zhuzh.livejournal.com]

You just have to memorise them I'm afraid. No kings' roads here. You're not dumb! You just have to read and listen and converse with people, lots and lots.

[oryx_and_crake]

The actor is normally in nominative case.
The subject is in accusative. E.g. "Мальчик видит книгу" - "A boy sees a book." - мальчик is in nominative, книга is in accusative.

A tool is normally in instrumental.
"Я копаю землю лопатой." - "I dig soil with a spade." Лопата is in instrumental.

A place, a building and a vehicle will be in prepositional (and they ALWAYS require a preposition, too, hence the name of the case)
в доме, в школе, на площади, на машине (in the house, at school, in a square, by car) are in prepositional

Dative means giving to someone (hence the name: дательный, from дать to give)
Мальчик подарил девочке цветы. The boy gave the girl some flowers. Here девочка is in dative and flowers, being a subject, are in accusative (see above).

Genitive is used in different cases, one of them is like that: "У меня нет денег." I have no money. Note that in "У меня есть деньги" money will be in the accusative. Another use of genitive is when someone is giving birth to someone ((hence the name: родительный, from родить to give birth)
Женщина родила сына. (сын is in genitive)

This is in no way complete but will give you a general idea.

[madrumos.livejournal.com]

I like your nice basic explanation, just one small caveat:
In У меня есть деньги the word "money" is in the nominative, not the accusative. This makes sense because it's not actually the object of a verb (there is no verb). Of course, literally translated, the phrase essentially means "Near me [there is] moneyю"
An example of the nominative not accusative: У меня есть кошка. У меня газета.

[radiodead.livejournal.com]

And how do you think what is the accusative of деньги?

[oryx_and_crake]

Right. In "У меня есть деньги" деньги is in nominative. In "Я вижу деньги" they are in accusative.

And for the English speakers: please note that деньги is plural! E.g. "На столе лежат деньги" as opposed to "The money IS on the table."

[satis-verborum.livejournal.com]

The subject is in accusative.
Here девочка is in dative and flowers, being a subject, are in accusative

You mean object, I think, not subject:)

[oryx_and_crake]

I am not sure, maybe. I mean someone or something to which something is done and not someone who is doing that :-)

[constpd.livejournal.com]

Женщина родила сына. (сын is in genitive)
Oops. Родить (кого?, что?). Here сын is a direct object, the verb родить is transitive, so it's accusative, not genitive.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_trains__derail/]

ohhhh thank you, this is very helpful!

[lexabear.livejournal.com]

To understand the use of case, you really have to understand grammar. If you know what subject, direct object, indirect object, and things like that are in English, it will help you a lot. If you don't know this grammar stuff already, look it up in English first, and then you can relate the Russian cases.

[mister-mist.livejournal.com]

I agree. If you don't know grammar principles, all the talk about cases, tenses, conjugations etc. is close to being meaningless to you. Learn elementary, general grammar first.

Or learn the language the way small children learn it: listen, listen again, understand, repeat, construct your own sentences, be corrected, try again, be laughed at, try again and so on until perfection is reached without any grammar at all.

It's a matter of personal taste which way to choose.

[miram.livejournal.com]

Try memorizing typical word combinations with the most common words, making a point of the cases used. E.g. благодарю (кого/что > Acc.) тебя, дарю подарок (кому/чему > Dat.) тебе, &c. This helped me a lot with Latin cases. And not only cases, of course.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_trains__derail/]

alright, thank you.

[gera.livejournal.com]

As far as I can judge (being a native speaker) this should be the single most difficult aspect of the Russian language for a foreign learner.

I believe that you can gain a basic understanding from examples; from then on - it's just a matter of experience (practice).

[http://users.livejournal.com/_trains__derail/]

yeah... i think it's the only thing i've really had trouble with. but i guess you guys are right; the only way to improve is to practice.

[madrumos.livejournal.com]

Keep in mind that very often (but not always), the case you should use will be indicated in the question asked. This doesn't help of course, when no one asks you a question and you just have to talk, but hey. Cf:
В каком доме живёшь? Here, we look at the question word какой and see the prepositional case with a regular masculine ending -ом. Therefore, you would also answer in the prepositional with a similar ending for an adjective:
Я живу в этом зелёном доме.

When learning a verb, take note not just of how it conjugates, what it means, and whether it is perfective or imperfective, but also what case(s) it takes.
дать что кому (accusative for object, dative for indirect object)
видеть кого (accusative for object)
писать что кому чем (accusative object, dative indirect object, instrumental for what you are using)
For example: Я пишу письмо ему ручкой. This sentence sounds kinda funny in Russian, but it is correct. The nouns here correspond with the question words in the phrase above.

Study, study, study. Memorize, practice, make sure people correct you. Keep getting it explained until you find something that makes sense to you. Study English grammar as well. Read a lot, and identify each case used and why it is being used rather than another.

[idealforcolors.livejournal.com]

i've been studying russian for two years and 90% of the time i speak, i get everything except the nominative and accusative wrong. here's to hoping it's a matter of time and practice :)

[gjertsen.livejournal.com]

I think one of the main reasons case languages are so hard for english speakers is that we usually aren't taught the grammer of our own language --we learn it by rote (at least in the US in my lifetime). Also, in english nouns almost never change when they are in a different case, though it's a germanic language, and so, essentially, has cases too. But the same basic sentence structure applies. I mean, if you understand why you say "To whom did you give the book?" (in correct english) instead of "who did you give the book to?" and why it would be very strange to say "Whom is in the room?" then you understand the dative case versus the nominative...Of course, like most americans, I usually say "who did you give the book to?" ;)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_trains__derail/]

yeah, i suppose i'm going to have to review english grammar before i can get better at the russian grammar. haha

practice, practice and practice

[red-kitti.livejournal.com]

I think you just need to practice, practice and practice. I am also someone who has a lot of trouble with cases, so I set up a Russian practice journal and I try to write a lot in it... I would say probably the number 1 problem I have with my writing are my cases. But I am getting better...and you will too. After I've written something and had it corrected by my Russian friends on LJ, I try to actually use whatever phrase/sentence I've written in an actual conversation, so that it will STICK.

Good luck!

Re: practice, practice and practice

[http://users.livejournal.com/_trains__derail/]

that journal idea is a good one. thank you!

[ashalynd.livejournal.com]

The most difficult aspect is probably which verbs require which cases. This is what you really have to memorize: when you learn the verb, try to learn which cases, if any, could be used for words dependent from that verb. Select a large enough number of verbs (say 50) write them down together with the cases, and try to classify them somehow, just for yourself, to see if there are somewhat similar verbs you could combine into a group and then to create a rule for this group. This would make the process of memorizing easier and somewhat more active, I hope. There is a caveat though, that later on there could always be a specimen that breaks your earlier classification. Nevertheless, it might work. I've learned irregular English verbs that way when I was 10 or 12 and this is the thing I still remember :)

[noser.livejournal.com]

I dunno if it's a bad or a good advice, but just FYI, Russians themselves only study cases in school, being 10-11 years old. Kids don't know what the cases are when they learn the language. They know the questions, like "Who?", "Whom?" "What?", and what question an object is supposed to answer for a prticular verb, for example "to see - whom/what?". And the question determines how the object gets deflected. It could be useful to memorize the questions corresponding to the case rather than case names.

N: Кто/что?
G: Кого/чего?
D: Кому/чему?
A: Кого/что?
I: Кем/чем?
P: О ком/о чём?

So, instead of memorizing "видеть requires Accusative" (which sounds too formal and disconnected from reality), you memorize "видеть кого/что?". Native speakers never use case names to memorize their language.

[viric.livejournal.com]

It's also found in that way in the dictionaries. :) So it's a good point.

practice, always practice

[viric.livejournal.com]

I'll say the same of the others - it's about practice. In English there are not cases, but there are similar situations. For example, you use "a" or "an" depending on the vowel of the next word. It's a simple rule, yes, but at the end you get some 'feeling' about the language because of the practice.
The result is that when I pronounce "a apple" to me it really sounds strange. And if I pronounce "an scissors" it's even more strange.
The same happened to me with Esperanto, where there are two cases - nominative and accusative. At first I had problems selecting the case for each word, as my mind was thinking a lot for building each said sentence. But after that, I got with it.
At the end, in Russian you'll get a similar feeling. You'll listen to "У меня нет деньги", and you'll feel: oh, something strange was said! What isn't normal here?

The most dificult are the cases which in your language aren't said without preposition. For example I don't doubt using тебе, Андрею, ... for the dative.

About the genitive, I think it's first noticed with numbers. :)
два года, пять лет... I still don't speak in Russian easily ruling the cases, but to me it sounds very strange "четыре лет", for example.

Well, everyone has his own experience about that :)

So, why the practice is important? The rules in Russian are quite complicated. It's hard to build the sentences thinking. So, practice is needed, in order to get the brain to build the sentences without intention. The same way you do with your mother language. The 'uncounciosness' learns better than the 'counciusness' languages :) but it needs practice in order to teach it.