Comrade

Aug. 2nd, 2005 10:15 am
[identity profile] gera.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] learn_russian
I just visited Russia and it so happened that I was on a tour with a group of Americans who visited Russia for the first time (and never studied Russian).
At some point а museum attendant addressed one of them as "Товарищ" ("Товарищ, не опирайтесь на колонну!" - "Comrade, don't lean against the column".)
He asked what "Товарищ" meant and when I translated it to him, he was surprised that the word "comrade" wasn't used instead. He was even more surprised to learn that there is no such word in the Russian language.
Moreoever, the entire group was literally astounded to learn that.

So, just in case some of you still don't know: there is no word "comrade" ("комрад") in Russian. It's товарищ.
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Date: 2005-08-02 03:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] insaint.livejournal.com
Actually, that word exists. It's spelled "камрад" and it isn't widely used. But, it means the same thing as "товарищ". According to Ushakov's dictionary, it is supposed to be used usually when talking about foreigners.

КАМРАД (http://dic.academic.ru/dic.nsf/ushakov/830206)

Date: 2005-08-02 03:32 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
I'd say it's obsolete, at least, if not completely forgotten.

Date: 2005-08-02 03:38 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] insaint.livejournal.com
I think you're right. It's one of those words that are sometimes used in jest among friends, but you'll never hear it in common daily conversations.

Date: 2005-08-02 03:38 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
I wonder why should they be astounded like that. Comrade is an English word, why should they expect it in Russian? Hollywood movies, maybe?

Date: 2005-08-02 03:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
Many thanks to Hollywood, again. O Ye Russians who drink their vodkas every other minute.

Date: 2005-08-02 03:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ulvesang.livejournal.com
When did the word "comrade" become associated with Russians and/or communism, anyway??? I rather like the word and use it a little too readilly-- to the confusion of (and sometimes garnering odd from) people around me.

Gotta thank uneducated moviegoers I guess.

Date: 2005-08-02 03:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
I have only heard it once in a Russian movie. It was used for an episode of a WWII movie which portrayed a bunch of NSDAP (German Nazi party) members. The actors spoke Russian, but one of them was addressing the others as "камрады". This is, I guess, because the normal salutation among NSDAP members was "Kamerad" -- as opposed to German communists and socialists, who were using "Genosse" instead.

Date: 2005-08-02 03:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] ulvesang.livejournal.com
Odd looks, I mean.

Date: 2005-08-02 04:02 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
And wave their bab'ushkas merrily around.

Date: 2005-08-02 04:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
The normal salutation among the members of many political parties is "comrade." In Russian, this word is "товарищ". It was the official salutation for everybody in the Soviet Union, especially in official use: an army private would be addressed by an officer as "товарищ солдат" (comrade soldier,) while the officer would be addressed by the soldiers as "товарищ лейтенант (майор, полковник etc.)" (comrade Lieutenant/Mayor/Colonel.) etc. The members of the Communist Party were also addressing to each other as "товарищ", and the official media (acually, any media: there was no media in the Soviet Union not controlled by the Communist Party) would write about the country leaders only like "Генеральный секретарь ЦК КПСС, товарищ Леонид Ильич Брежнев" (the Secretary General of the Central Committee of the Communist Party of the Soviet Union, comrade Leonid Ilyich Brezhnev.) The use of "товарищ" (comrade) as an everyday salutation only started to shrink after 1991. Actually, it's still around, many people still call each other this way, especially the older generation.
Does this explain your question? :)

Date: 2005-08-02 04:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] schwarzer-tod.livejournal.com
In all fairness, America hates its own tourists passionately. (See [livejournal.com profile] overheardnyc for reference)

Date: 2005-08-02 04:04 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Huh? No one hated tourists here...

Date: 2005-08-02 04:06 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
Those extra advanced ones may also remember that Russians play their balalaikas.
Hey, it's all in that "Back in the U.S.S.R." song by the Beatles!

...Let me hear your balalaika's ringing out,
Come and keep your comrade warm,
I'm back in the U.S.S.R. you don't know how lucky you are, boy,
Back in U.S.S.R.!

They knew! They knew! Thanks John, thanks Paul (actually, it's Paul's) for this 1968 masterpiece :)))

Date: 2005-08-02 04:06 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
P.S. I think that prohibiting anyone from leaning onto a column in a historical building (regardless whether this person is a tourist or otherwise) is perfectly normal and is not a sign of hating anyone.

Date: 2005-08-02 04:13 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
Yup, back to our Myths concerning Russian language (http://www.livejournal.com/community/learn_russian/219468.html) community memoires post. Should we add this one, too? I guess we should.

Date: 2005-08-02 04:24 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
Well, I've been in the military quite a long time ago (1986-87...), and it was still the Soviet Army, so I'm not exactly an expert in today's Russian Army :)

Date: 2005-08-02 04:26 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] wolk-off.livejournal.com
Done. I have added it to the community memoirs' Myths&Stereotypes section (http://www.livejournal.com/tools/memories.bml?user=learn_russian&keyword=Myths%26Stereotypes&filter=all). Thanks for contributing this :))

Date: 2005-08-02 05:02 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] oikade.livejournal.com
I'd imagine it's got more to do with cold war propaganda.

Comrade, as far as I've encountered it in modern English - is used exclusively to refer to Communist Russians. It's even listed under this definition at dictionary.com. I decided to google define it as well, "a fellow member of the Communist Party".

Not so simple as uneducation, it's years of heavy miseducation reinforced by consensus.

Even I was surprised when I learned that comrade is not transliterated from Russian.
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