(no subject)

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

I seem to recall that the ending -ться is pronounced like -ца. Is this correct? If so, is -тся pronounced the same?

Comments

[madrumos.livejournal.com]

I disgree. I think, like others have said above, -ться and -тся are pronounced identically: like -ца (or more accurately, like ts followed by a schwa or even looser sound, assuming it is unstressed). I've always had professors, including native Russians, explain that you do not ever pronounce "tsyah", it is always "tsah". In my opinion (and theirs) there is no millisecond hold or pause; the soft sign is ignored entirely. The reason for all of this is that т and с automatically combine down to ц when they're next to each other, and because ц can't be soft, any soft signs in between or any soft vowels after become hard. Therefore, the ь in -ться disappears, and the я becomes а, giving us ца.

[padruka1988.livejournal.com]

I am absolutely, positively sure that there is a difference between ться и тся и ца и тса. Of the people that I've studied with, not a single one ever failed to correct me when I say ться и тся identically. Non-native speakers don't hear this difference... I mean, think about a foreign language that you don't know at all... All of it mixes together and sounds the same because your brain cannot recognize and separate anything. The difference IS really small, almost undetectable. Native speakers just put in the small difference without thinking about it, and they (probably) haven't been taught there is a difference because they just automatically say it correctly. Like of and off... I was never told that these were pronounced differently, my kindergarten teacher just read the words and it was so. I never even considered those two words similar or confusing because I didn't learn them in the same minute. However, most people who are learning Russian verbs learn the infinitive + 6 conjugations all at the same time. A native speaker's parents probably didn't say, "ГОВОРИТЬ - Я ГОВОРЮ, ТЫ ГОВОРИШЬ, ОН ГОВОРИТ, МЫ ГОВОРИМ, ВЫ ГОВОРИТЕ, ОНИ ГОВОРЯТ"... One day, "little native speaker" heard mom say "О чём говоришь?" and maybe a few days later, the child heard "Говорят, что будет идти дождь"... And children do not put these different forms together and realize "OH, these all come from the same original verb!" because our minds don't work that way when we are that young (that is an entirely different subject all together). Young children just repeat, or at least try, to repeat exactly what they hear. And because of this, adult native speakers just don't think about the difference. However, English speakers... who don't have the ь or ъ... Are not subconciously listening for a difference. But to Russian speaking people, it makes a LOT of difference.

семья vs семя? two VERY different things.
врать vs врат? to lie and the gates have NOTHING in common, but the мякий знак changes the sound of the -t-, and then we understand what the other person is talking about.

Can it be inferred from context? Of course. But as I said earlier... When non-native speakers speak in a foreign language and they don't pronounce those subtle sounds... The native listener may not understand the non-native speaker.

A lot of this has to do with speech pathology and the whole science of communication, and in the real world, nobody (probably) will have a cry if you pronounce ть and т in the same way... But it can make life a little bit easier.

[padruka1988.livejournal.com]

Also, it is quite difficult to explain sounds by typing them out... So the whole millisecond hold thing - I'm SURE you would say, "Oh, you're pronouncing it right"... But the only way I know how to describe this is to say a millisecond hold. To a Russian speaking person, it sounds stupid and unnecessary, but to an American, it could be helpful.

The weirdest things have helped people understand different topics... So don't knock it until you try it. :))

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

This is just me being a nitpicky jackass, but could you maybe use such-and-such (<em>such-and-such</em>) instead of SUCH-AND-SUCH? It gets ... hard on the eyes.

(Also, I might be completely wrong, but I think that a few of the people who are saying бояться is pronounced the same as баяца would are native Russian speakers.)

[oryx_and_crake]

семья and семя are indeed different, but -ться and -тся is an altogether different case. And you don't normally pronounce -т and -ть in the same way. The source of misunderstanding is probably that you are trying to pronounce the words letter by letter, and this is a wrong way - the thing you do pronounce is a syllable, and "ться" just becomes "ца" when you pronounce it, and that's the end of story.

Same thing happens with the word "счастливого" that any native speaker would pronounce as "щисливава"; and, indeed, сча and щи are two very different things, but this is how this word is pronounced, end of story.

[noser.livejournal.com]

> there is a difference between ться и тся и ца и тса.... Non-native speakers don't hear this difference...

You'd be surprised, but natives don't either. This is some kind of conspiracy, I'm telling ya.