Voicing and devoicing

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

On the topic of voiced and devoiced consonants, my textbook says that the final letter of a word is always pronounced devoiced, even if voiced (e.g. гараж pronounced as гараш) ... but it also said that if the next word starts in a voiced consonant, the last letter of the previous word will be voiced, even if it's unvoiced (e.g. вас зовут pronounced ваз-зовут).

What about with blends? For example, "без тебя" would be "бес тебя", but would "без твои книги" be "без двои книги"?

Comments

[ex-exchange-154.livejournal.com]

you should say "без твоих книг" and it will be pronounced like "бес твоих книг", because the letter "т" is devoiced...

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

But doesn't the в cause the т to be pronounced like a д?

[ex-exchange-154.livejournal.com]

It doesn't. Anyway, I've never heard somebody pronounced it like "д":)

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

So ... is it pronounced like тфоих, then?

[gera.livejournal.com]

A consonant that comes before a vowel is never devoiced.

[ex-exchange-154.livejournal.com]

no, "твоих".

[ekeme-ndiba.livejournal.com]

Unlike Greek, where regressive assimilation is consistent, in Russian "v" doesn't cause voicing of the preceeding consonant (σβήσω [zviso] vs. свист [svist]).

[gera.livejournal.com]

"без тебя" would be "бес тебя",

Correct.

but would "без твои книги" be "без двои книги"?

бес твоей книги

[gera.livejournal.com]

By the way, I always considered these to be more guidelines than rigid rules.

If you enunciate (for example, when declaiming) you wouldn't devoice the last consonants. But normally you would.

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

But when one is listening to others speaking Russian, do they usually follow these rules?

[taosu.livejournal.com]

Usually they do. Otherwise it would sound strange.

[gera.livejournal.com]

Yes.
For Russian speakers it comes naturally this way.

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

I suppose it's something like the final s's in English -- when an s comes after an unvoiced consonant, it is pronounced as "s"; in all other cases, it seems to come out as "z".

[gera.livejournal.com]

True.

[beowabbit]

For example, "без тебя" would be "бес тебя", but would "без твои книги" be "без двои книги"?

No, but that’s just because в is an exception to the rule that a voiced consonant (stop or affricate, actually; voiced consonants like л and р don’t do this) turns a preceding voiced consonant voiceless. With в, it’s the other way around: a preceding voiceless consonant turns в into ф. (And by the way, без takes the genitive.)

Except for consonant clusters ending in в, in which case it’s the consonant (really, stop or affricate) before the в that matters, the voice or voicelessness of the final consonant (again, stop or affricate) controls the entire cluster.

Unfortunately, my Russian isn’t good enough to come up with a bunch of examples off the top of my head, but “without your book (sg)”, «без твоей книги» would be pronounced /бистфаЕйкнИги/ and “without the two books”, «без двух книг» would be pronounced /биздвУхкнИк/.

Palatalization also spreads back from the end of the consonant cluster, so in «из Сибири» and «из деревья» the з’s (whether pronounced as с or з) are palatalized. For palatalization, it doesn't matter whether the final consonant is a в or not.

[noser.livejournal.com]

> With в, it’s the other way around: a preceding voiceless consonant turns в into ф.

Nope. At least not before a vowel. "тфaих" sounds like exaggerated German accent in those WW2 movies.

[oryx_and_crake]

"беС Твоей книги"
but
"беЗ Двух книг"

it's "с/з" sound that mimics the next sound

more examples:
беС Смерти
беЗ Денег
беЗ Работы
беЗ Отчаяния
беС Страха

[rednameless.livejournal.com]

Strange topic :)

Actually, voicing or devoicing in "без" is not very imortant. It is not rule. (but, of course, it important rule in prefix "без-/бес-").
In fact, pronouncing "без двух книг" as "биз двух кник" is like speaking misspelling. Like "dunno", "gimme", "coz"... Of course, pronouncing "биз двух кник" not very tragically, but "без двух книг" sounds much better. For me, at least. :)

So, in examples "без смерти", "без денег", "без работы", "без отчаяния", "без страха" pronouncing doesn't matter - "без" or "бес". But "без" correct always (because it orthografically correct), and "бес" - only sometimes acceptable. Voicing/devoicing come from merging sounds of last and next letters. It is more "comfortable" for your tongue sometimes (e.g. "в топку!" and "автор" much easier pronounced as "ф топку!" and "афтор"), but generally better pronouncing is pronouncing based on cоrrect orthography.

[rednameless.livejournal.com]

Oh, and about last question. :)
"без твоих" never pronounced as "без двоих" (as well as "автор", "в топку" never pronounced as "авдор", "в допку", because only first letter can take voicing/devoicing from second, but not second from first.

[oryx_and_crake]

No native speaker of Russian would pronounce "книг" as "книГ". It will sound unnatural. Same goes about "без страха". To pronounce it as you say ("беЗ Страха") one will have to make a pause between the preposition and the noun, thus disrupting the normal flow of the speech. So, in general, I must say that your recommendations look strange to me. De-voicing IS a rule, unless you are deliberately speaking with an accent, that is.

[rednameless.livejournal.com]

No native speaker of Russian would pronounce "книг" as "книГ". It will sound unnatural. Same goes about "без страха". To pronounce it as you say ("беЗ Страха") one will have to make a pause between the preposition and the noun, thus disrupting the normal flow of the speech.

It depends how fast you speak.
Faster speaking - more devoicing.
Of course it will unnatural pronouncing "книг" as "книГ" (see, not "г" but "Г", a fanaticaly huge "Г"). "г" will sounds as blended "г"&"к", but never as clear "к". Unless you are конченый двоечник. It is necessary to understand - devoicng is not turning, for examle, clear "г" into clear "к", it is always blending (in different proportions) of voiced and devoiced sounds.
Anyway, if you know russian good enough and can speak pretty fast, voicing/devoicing will derive itself and nothing you can do with it.

So, in general, I must say that your recommendations look strange to me.

Have a practice speaking different ways.

De-voicing IS a rule, unless you are deliberately speaking with an accent, that is..

Devoicing is a phonetical feature of russian language.

[ekeme-ndiba.livejournal.com]

It is necessary to understand - devoicng is not turning, for examle, clear "г" into clear "к", it is always blending (in different proportions) of voiced and devoiced sounds.

Wow, it's something new in Russian phonology! You seem to describe phonetic features that resemble Korean pronunciation :-)