MAT part 0.

[taosu.livejournal.com]

Okay, now I'll try to answer all comments to my previous post with one shot. I didn't have any intention to «provoke» the members of this community to discuss MAT or something. I just thought that

1. This issue would be very interesting for non-native speakers because there are no books that you can learn this from (perhaps, I didn't happen to find any yet);
2. MAT is a very important (IMHO) part of Russian language, culture and tradition;
3. I thought that MAT might have been previously discussed here because of 1 and 2 and asked if this was true;
4. It seems that there weren't any discussions about MAT so I'm pleased to start one (of course, if Mr. Moderator is okay with this);
5. I understand Mr. Moderator's concern about my intentions but I want to discuss Russian MAT in a strictly linguistic way.

So... should we start, okay? My English isn't too well yet so I'm sorry for any inconvenience.

MAT generally means abusive language that's usually banned from printing. Lexically MAT covers the following areas:

• insulting words;
• words related to parts of human body and sexual interaction
• usually pointless, parasitive usage of these words in speech just in order to amplify it.

Until the 1991 there weren't any official researches on the origin and other questions about MAT. Russian people started to use MAT long ago. There is a version that MAT was brought with Tatar-Mongol invaders in 13th century but some people think that MAT was invented by Slavic tribes themselves long before that. The first works of literature that contained MAT date back 18th century. Famous Russian poet Alexander Pushkin reportedly is the author of many poems written with the usage of MAT.

The usage of MAT is officially banned from printing, it can't be used by public people, e.g. politicans and celebrities. Of course, there are exceptions like Valdimir Zhirinovski, the leader of Liberal-Democratic Party of Russia (well, actually he became famous because of his... mmm... language) or singer Filipp Kirkorov who using MAT insulted a female reporter last year. Mat is considered a hooliganism, the user of MAT is punished according to clause #158 of the Administrative Code of Russian Federation but you understand that it's impossibe to enforce that law. Of course, nobody would talk using MAT to a militiaman or boss because this can cause problems but many people (especially men, teenagers, criminals, army) do so towards their peers or subordinates. MAT in presence of woman is considered intolerable but some women also use it widely.

The very interesting thing about it IMHO is that Russian MAT is unique in some way — one can express everything (really everything) using nothing but words of MAT.

Next time: MAT part 1: General vocabulary.

Please leave your comments and questions — this will help us decide if this issue is really worth discussing or we should stop.

Comments

[holyschist.livejournal.com]

There is a version that MAT was brought with Tatar-Mongol invaders in 13th century but some people think that MAT was invented by Slavic tribes themselves long before that.

I would think this could be resolved with etymological study (Turkic-Altaic v. Slavic roots) -- do you know if any has been done, or is study of MAT also forbidden?

[taosu.livejournal.com]

Due to the fact it was long ago, there are no seriuos written proof and these languages endured severe modifications since then it's hard to prove. But Mongolian version of MAT's origin is probably the most popular.

[xnrrn.livejournal.com]

I can confirm the Mongolian origin of MAT. :)
The three letter word has two meanings, one that of a scabbard, the second one of a whirlwind.
The e- word has a meaning of transportation using a horse, but more generaly horseback riding.

The thing is that not all of the vocabulary of MAT has those origins. If someone wants to check by the way, get your hands on a Rusian/Mongolian dictionary.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

I think that this is just the similarity of the sound. The origins of that word are Indo-European (Sanscritic steam that means "penetrate" - хвоя and хвощ come from the same root.)

[xnrrn.livejournal.com]

I can't do the confirmation in the linguistic sense unfortunately. :\
So the three letter word would be the verb for that root (um, forgive the pun, if there was one)?

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

What I've read stated that the stem was building both a noun and a verb in proto-Sanscritic Arian languages.
Having a quite random memory, I cannot, unfortunately, recall the acual stem :(( I've read that exactly 20 years ago now, and the source wasn't something you can pull off your bookshelve right away -- my professor's doctor's thesis, with a "ДСП" mark on it.

[xnrrn.livejournal.com]

ДСП?

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

"Для служебного пользования" (authorised personnel use only.) Things like that weren't published openly. It was part of the Main Secret of the Soviet Union (that the real life did exist.)

[xnrrn.livejournal.com]

The thing is that a lot of tribes left in mongolia (and some which traveled to europe) were both either a) protoaryan and left for europe or b) remained united by certain Ghengis Khan some time later.

I am not all sure on the usage of Sanscritic languages (to return back to the topic). The thing is, say lamas to this day use the language, and it is quite close to Russian, almost enough to understand the speech (although, as I understand not the writing).
The turk influence came later, when most of remnants of the empire became muslim (and it also came from uhigur who were muslim originaly).

In fact some of the Mongols (i.e. my ansestors for example) were participating in freeing the Palestine from the muslims (along with err... Армяне, hmm, I don't know the english word for them), and were betrayed by them.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Hmmm. Quite a distorted and way too simplified look on Eurasian history, should I admit. I've studied some history in my life. There was a good while between proto-Arians and the Mongols, some twelve hundred years at least. There were Hunnu and Turk-Hyut and Telehs and Coq-Turk and many other peoples between them, all of them came and went away.

The English word for армяне is Armenians. Note that in Russian language, unlike English, the names of the nations are not capitalized (русские, армяне, тюрки, not Тюрки etc.)

[xnrrn.livejournal.com]

Bingo (about Armenians). And yep, I also learned history (which has quite a few holes for non european, non Russian history in that window). Also I think the window is about 9-10 hundred years not twelve (with the great move west lasting at least couple hundred years). At least depending on which proto-Arian tribes/peoples we are talking about. (Its true that I should go and brush up my history sometime).

P.S.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

> lamas to this day use the language, and it is quite close to Russian, almost enough to understand the speech

It isn't. The language closest to the historical Sanskrit (NOT the Sanskrit of today's Buddhist service use!) is Lithuanian. It is relatively close to Russian, but no closer than other more ancient Indo-European languages. Still a totally different family of languages (Baltic, not Slavic.)

[sai17.livejournal.com]

Maybe it can help you to begin...

http://www.lingvo.ru/dictionaries/InformalER.asp

[taosu.livejournal.com]

Thanks but I think my own knowlenge is sufficient.

[sisyphus.livejournal.com]

In Dostoevsky's Diary of a Writer, didn't he say a Russian can express himself fully using only one word? I assume this word is 'хуй' -- is there any agreement on the origin of this word? I had heard it was imported from Mongols or Tartars.

Once, before my better judgment prevailed, I was thinking of trying to translate Tupac's great song, 'Fuck the World'
http://66.235.201.243/~dallas/mp3/13%20Fuck%20The%20World.mp3
A translation for the title eluded me. The best I could think to use was 'пошли все на хуй' -- is this close to conveying the meaning of Tupac's title? I also considered все заебало, but it seemed too...passive or something.

[apollotiger.livejournal.com]

Out of curiosity, what does «хуй» as a noun mean by itself? What, then, is a literal translation of «пошёл на хуй»?

[taosu.livejournal.com]

Have patience, my friend, everything will be covered in the next chapter. I think I've got to finish it today...

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

It means primary male body member. Just to be precise.

[branwen.livejournal.com]

Lev and Sasha use it ALL THE TIME. To describe EVERYTHING....

[taosu.livejournal.com]

Yes, probably "хуй" is the MAT that has the most proof to have connection to Mongolian language but there are also a lot, quite a lot of MATs that are originally Russian with no doubt.

As for the translation of the title of Tupac's song I think "Пошли все нахуй" is the best. You're right, "Всё заебало" is something different. It's similar but the idea of this phrase doesn't match the original one.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

One of my Russian Stylistics professors' at the Moscow State University, the late Dr.Shanskaya's, doctor's thesis was covering this topic, including ethymology. She had proven that the three-letter word originated from pre-Slavic, even Arian languages, that there were words of similar stem in Sanskrit, with the meaning "penetrate," and that, for example, the Russian name of a plant "хвощ" originated from the same stem.

[xnrrn.livejournal.com]

Um, and what about the verb "ховать", as in "to hide"?

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

She was exploring Russian, not Ukrainian.

[xnrrn.livejournal.com]

Both have slavic roots. I suspect, this word might be of the case.

There is a good joke about both х words used together, but Im not sure it is a good place and/or time to tell.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

I don't think that I'm qualified to discuss the Ukrainian language. I can read it, but my speaking skills are very poor.
No, I don't think that ховати has something to do with that stem Though хвощ and хвоя definitely do.

[dammital.livejournal.com]

A few years ago I picked up a dual-language collection of essays by Irina Ratushinskaia. A one-page short story, "The Visit", told of visitors from another planet who puzzled over the ubiquitous хуй.

A fun little read, and recommended.

[sisyphus.livejournal.com]

There is at least one book that covers basic MAT, Vladimir Shlyakhov's Dictionary of Russian Slang. Due to the nature of slang, no book like this can be up to date for too long, if at all, but it has most of the basic stuff, and how offensive it is supposed to be, as well plenty as non-MAT stuff.

[branwen.livejournal.com]

Huh, strange--I bought that book last Tuesday...

Lest not forget our classics

[alinaf.livejournal.com]

The most famous poem with wide usage of Mat is Luka Mudischev by Ivan Semenovich Barkov. It also dates back to 18th century. In my opinion, it's a must-read for anyone interested in Mat. The text, as well as some information about the author, can be found here http://pleasures.ru/article94.html

[-fallingfree-.livejournal.com]

Perfect.
Author, please, write more!

[aciel.livejournal.com]

Actually, there is a book on this in English, but I don't recall the title. I saw it in my local Barnes & Noble (you guys have those in Russia? =P), in the language education section.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

>Barnes & Noble (you guys have those in Russia?

You think we should? We have plenty of domestic book stores, and happened to have some even before the Great American Brand Names arrived :))))

[aciel.livejournal.com]

By no means do I think you should have them, sir. I can't stand the Brand Names.

Repeated

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

As one really old and boring fart, I cannot subscribe to the poster's point of view, but since we decide to do this in a strictly linguistic manner, and to discuss the issue as a strictly liguistic issue, whitout unncecessary demonstration of too much dirt, I thereby agree to be patient for a while. I just warn those who cannot wait to open their Russian Obscene Wisdom Storage Facilities too wide, that it is I who is going to decide if the Storage Facilities are opened too wide, and it is a fast ban (effective forever) that follows the boundary break, so be careful.
I also INSIST on the extensice usage of lj-cut in following posts concerning this topic, since there is a lot of people here who are not going to be too happy to see curse words on their friend mode pages, this maintainer included.

[belacane.livejournal.com]

I would very much love to see more of this!

[kutsuwamushi.livejournal.com]

Heh.

I'm one of the moderators, and I'm very interested to see where this might go. I have no objections to discussing it--my only concern is that you keep all offensive words behind an lj-cut, with a warning. There are people here who prefer to avoid them, and also people who might be browsing at work.

(I'm most interested in how mat words are formed.)

Если вы чего-то не видели, это не значит, что этого не су

[solito.livejournal.com]

>This issue would be very interesting for non-native speakers because there are no books that you can learn this from (perhaps, I didn't happen to find any yet)

Is this the reason why you started to collect all those words? I can assure you there are quite a few books in this regard - in Russia as well as abroad. Just to give you some examples:

Anon. A Dictionary of Russian Obscenities or Everything You Have Always Wanted to Know about Russian but Were Afraid to Ask. Cambridge, Mass.: n. p., 1971

Dictionary of Russian Obscenities. Cambridge, 1971

Drummond D. A., Perkins G. Dictionary of Russian Obscenities, 2 rev. ed., Berkley, 1980 (1979, 1 ed.).

Drummond, Perkins. Drummond D. A., Perkins G. Dictionary of Russian Obscenities. 3 rev. ed. Oakland, 1987.

Galler M. Soviet Prison Camp Speech: (A Survivor's Glossary: Supplement). Hayward, 1977.

Galler M., Marquеs H. E. Soviet prison camp speech: (A Survivor's Glossary: Supplement by terms from the works of A. I. Solzenicyn). Madison, 1972.

Kunitskaya-Peterson C. International Dictionary of Obscenities: A guide to dirty Words in Spanish, Italian, French, German, Russian, Oakland, 1981

Nikolski V. D. Dictionary of contemporary Russian Slang. Moscow, 1993.

Razvratnikov, Boris Sukitch. Elementary Russian Obsenity. Maledicta, Vol. III, №2, Winter 1979

Rossi J. The Gulag Handbook: A Historical Dictionary of Soviet Penitentiary Institutions and Terms Related to the Forcet Labour Camps With a Preface by Alain Besancon. London, 1987.

Wheeler M. Oxford Russian-English Dictionary. Oxford: Clarendon press, 1972. [Sec. ed. 1984]

Ахметова Т. В. Русский мат: Толковый словарь. 2-е доп. изд. М.: Колокол-пресс, 1997. 571 с.
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1574042/

Ахметова Т. В.: Русский мат: Толковый словарь, М., 1997

Балдаев Д. С. Словарь блатного воровского жаргона. Т.1-2. М.: Кампана, 1997

Балдаев Д. С., Белко В. К., Исупов И. М. Словарь тюремно-лагерно-блатного жаргона: Речевой и графический портрет советской тюрьмы. М., 1992.

Буй, Василий [псевд.].: 1995, Русская заветная идиоматика: (Веселый словарь крылатых выражений). М.: "Помовский и партнеры". 336 с.

Быков В. Русская Феня: словарь современного интержаргона асоциальных элементов. Смоленск, 1994.

Волков А. Англо-русский и русско-английский словарь табуированной лексики, Минск, 1993,

Изнародов В. Словарь живого великорусского мата. 1984. Рук.

Кабанов, 1992: Кабанов Н. Русский мат: Толковый словарь. Рига, 1992.

Колесников Н. П., Корнилов Е. А. Поле русской брани: Словарь бранных слов и выражений в русской литературе. Ростов-на-Дону: Феникс, 1996. 384 с.

Международный словарь непристойностей: Путеводитель по скабрезным словам в русском, итальянском, французском, немецком, испанском, английском языках: Кохтев А. Н. [ред.], [М.], [1992]

Моисеев, Владимир. Русский мат: Краткий перечень и самоучитель выражений неофициального русского языка. Leipzig, 1993. 65 с.

А.Плуцер-Сарно Большой словарь мата Тт. 1, 2. М.: Лимбус-Пресс, 2001 [издание продолжается]
http://www.ozon.ru/context/detail/id/1072957/

Русский мат от А до Я: Велик и могуч. CD ROM. М.: Multimedia Paradise & Алготех, 1997

Русский мат: (Антология) / Ильясов Ф. Н. [ред.]. Арбатская О. А., Веревкин Л. П., Гершуни В. Л., Захарова Л. Д., Ильясов Ф. Н., Майковская Л. С. [сост.]. М.: Издательский дом Лада М, 1994. 304 с.

Флегон, 1973: Флегон А. За пределами русских словарей, 3 ed., London, 1973.

Юганов, Юганова, 1994: Юганов И., Юганова Ф. Русский жаргон 60-90-х годов. Опыт словаря, Баранов А. Н. [ред.]. М.: "Помовский и партнеры", 318 с. 1994.

Re: Если вы чего-то не видели, это не значит, что этого не

[taosu.livejournal.com]

Господи Иисусе... Сколько их тут!

Re: Если вы чего-то не видели, это не значит, что этого не

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

I happened to have at least three of those (Akhmetova's, Plutzer-Sarno's [however weak this one might be] and Yuganov's.) Not that I've found there too much of what I didn't know before, should I admit.

Re: Если вы чего-то не видели, это не значит...

[solito.livejournal.com]

Dum spiro, spero... You will find a dictionary of obscene words one day with totally new entries... Or there will be someone obscene enough to let you know them :)))