На Vs. В

[lurid-me.livejournal.com]

Hi :) I'm a first semester russian student and I've been a member of this community for a few months now.
I havn't said much but now I am having difficulty with a lesson we are learning. We are learning the appropriate times to distinguish На from В in the prepositional case. I understand that В is used to mean 'in' or 'at' and that На is used for 'on' or 'at', but could someone give me a better understanding? В is used for locations and На for activities. Anything else that would help me?
Спасибо :)

Comments

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

I feel you. На and в are also used to be "to." Both of them. When using the accusative case. You just have to learn which nouns go with which preposition (for the most part it's в).

Я иду на почту (accusative). Мой отеу работает на заводе (prep).
Мы идём в школу (accusative). Моя мама работает в библиотеке (prep).

My book says that на is mainly used with things that are in an "open space" then goes on to explain that post offices used to be in the open. How was one supposed to know that? I don't know. You just have to either get a list or get used to them. Actually, let me find some for you.

Also, be careful with на and what case you put the following noun in. If you PUT something ON something, it's in the accusative. If something is ALREADY on something, and you want to describe it's already being there, use на with prepositional.

Ребёнок лежит на кворе. (prep)
Поставь чашки на стол. (accusative)

Um... perhaps someone else will be of better use.

[oryx_and_crake]

it's отец (and на ковре, but this is probably just a typo)

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Oy, oopsies. Thanks!

[yms.livejournal.com]

btw... do you know the exact translation of "oopsies" into Russian? ;)

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

No... but do tell!

[yms.livejournal.com]

"Опаньки!" :)
(О stressed)

[oryx_and_crake]

No, not really.
"Оппаньки" has positive connotations, you say it when you actually manage to accomplish something, especially if you do that in one brief stroke. You say "Oops" in case of a mishap or a mistake - in Russian, you would use a range of expressions from strong one like "О черт!" to mild like "Ой!"

[yms.livejournal.com]

yes, "опаньки" has a wider set of meanings, but in most cases it's quite possible to translate "oopsies" as "опаньки", and it sounds similar, so I just didn't want to complicate things...

[lexabear.livejournal.com]

wolfie_18 pretty much covered it. Most words take в except for those that take на, and it's pretty arbitrary which nouns get на. You'll just have to remember them.

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Em... may I ask how you did that wolfie_18 thing like that?

[oryx_and_crake]

<lj user="wolfie_18">

[oryx_and_crake]

maybe you don't need quotation marks, though

[lexabear.livejournal.com]

You do need the quotation marks; it works like normal HTML. The LJ FAQ (http://www.livejournal.com/support/faqbrowse.bml?faqid=75) explains more.

[oryx_and_crake]

Test
oryx_and_crake

[oryx_and_crake]

See, it worked without quotation marks, too.
LJ-tags are not standard html, they are proprietary.

[klammeraffe.livejournal.com]

I'm Russian, but I don't know exact rules, and even Russians sometimes do mistakes on this... %) Only original text's can help, I think.

[cema.livejournal.com]

"На" and "в" are often used in almost idiomatic constructs. In some cases, this even becomes a political issue ("на Украину" versus "в Украину"). I am afraid the situation here is like with English spelling: you just have to remember each case, the few rules that exist are misleading.

[malaya-zemlya.livejournal.com]

Let me give it a shot...
The Basic meaning for the prepositions is exactly what you have been told

"В" stands for either
a location inside some sort of container or enclosure
Иван сидел в коробке - Ivan was sitting in a box
a direction into an enclosure
Степан залез в пещеру - Stepan crawled into a cave

"Ha", on the other hand refers to surfaces. It means either location on a surface
Кружка стоит на столе - A mug is on a table
Рисунок на бумаге - A picture on a paper

Or, similarly to B, it means a direction _onto_ a surface
Кошелек упал на землю - A purse fell on the ground
Иван сидел на крыльце - Ivan was sitting on a porch

Also sometimes you have to use these preposition even when English can do without any extra words:
Вася нажал на кнопку - Vasya pressed a button
Таня играла на пианино - Tanya played piano

As in English, these prepositions have myriad of extended meanings, which sometimes only indirectly relate to the basic meanings.

Ha can mean a place of where some activity is taking place, especially if it's an abstract sort of a location
Ира на работе - Ira is at work
Степан на выставке - Stepan is at the exhibition
Дмитрий на заседании - Dmitry is at a meeting

However, If you mean an actual physical location you would use В
Ира в офисе - Ira is in her office
Степан в Выставочном Центре - Stepan is in the Exhibition Center
Дмитрий в зале заседаний - Dmitry is in a meeting room

As you can see, this is somewhat analogous to English language

However, just to make things really simple:
Петя в кино/театре/опере - Petya is at a movie theater/theater/opera
Ярослав на Сахарной Фабрике в цеху номер 1 - Yaroslav is at the Sugar Factory in the building number 1

And if that is not straightforward enough На has a totally unrelated meaning "Here, take it!"
- Дай мне денег!
- На!
Please give me some money!
Here it is!
(Note, this is a fairly informal expression. You should never say it to anyone with whom you are not on a first name basis)

[lurid-me.livejournal.com]

You are awesome. Thank you so much for the breakdown, and for including english. I'm only 3 months in :)
Your reply has been quite helpful, and i'm going to copy it into my notes, haha

[malaya-zemlya.livejournal.com]

:Or, similarly to B, it means a direction _onto_ a surface

Иван сидел на крыльце - Ivan was sitting on a porch

As you may have noticed, this is a wrong example. It has to go with the "on" meaning, not "onto".

A proper example would be something like this:

Иван сел на пол/бревно/стул - Ivan sat down on a floor/log/chair

Sorry for the confusion.

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Here you go: Some examples of

Nouns that use в: страна, город, деревня, аудитория, класс, клуб, больница, кафе, Сибирь, университет, институт, лаборатория, школа, театре, кино, цирк, библиотека, поликлиник, санаторий, гостиница

Nouns that use на: родина, площадь, улица, север, юг, восток, запад, Украина (As cema said, this is debated. На implies that it is a territory, so Ukranians go all beserk and say "NO! We are a country of our own, use B!"), занятия, работа, завод, фабрика, станция, вокзал, остановка, почта, урок, экзамен, лекция, концерт, вечер, выставка, стадион

BE CAREFUL though, the exceptions when using prepositional case (the ones that don't use the e ending) are (I'm going to put them in the prep case already) в шкафу, на полу, в углу, в саду, в лесу, на мосту.

[philena.livejournal.com]

Don't forget на берегу! (пустынных волн стоял он, дум великих полн . . . That was my first year, and I don't think I'll ever forget the first couple lines. There's something very powerful about rote memorization that has been overlooked in modern education) The special locative in -у is a remnant, if I don't fool myself, from the times when there was a different declension paradigm for masculine nouns that ended in ь. Is that right, someone who actually knows? I once knew the answer, but have since forgotten it.

[lurid-me.livejournal.com]

Thank you so much for the research! You've been very helpful for me :) I'm going to copy these down :)

[kehlen-crow.livejournal.com]

One more example with на: на дереве (птица поёт)

[zima-forever.livejournal.com]

Only experience of dialogue can help you, i think.

We do mistakes in this situations too.
There is a Russian proverb -
Кто ищет, тот всегда найдет.