Я Новый Член

[beltspinner.livejournal.com]

I'm new here, and I'm also new to Russian. I'm hoping this community can help me out, since that seems to be the purpose, so we can all help eachother out.


I'm confused about the word зето and зтот and the different forms. I'm not sure about when to use them. Our test is on wednesday which includes these sections, but I could really use some help. My textbook голоса does not give a very good explaination of this part. It just gives examples. I don't understand when to use each.

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

First of all, they are not зето and зтот, they are это and этот.
Second, they both mean "this", but это refers to neutral gender, этот - to masculine and эта - to feminine.

Examples:
Это платье - красивое. This dress is beautiful.
Эта книга - интересная. This book is interesting.
Этот человек - умный. This man is clever.

Это is also used as another case of "this" usage, e.g.

Это книга. This is a book.
Это платье. This is a dress.
Это человек. This is a man.

[oryx_and_crake]

And I forgot to mention that in the first case it can be plural if the noun is plural:
Эти книги - интересные. Those books are interesting.
Эти дома - старые. Those houses are old.
You see that plural form is the same for all genders.

In the first case the modifiers, as ladybirdsleeps kindly pointed out (I always have trouble with proper terminology), will also take declensions, in accordance with the cases of nouns they modify, e.g.
Я видел эти книги. I saw these books.
Я не читал этой книги. I have not read this book.
Я не видел этого платья. I have not seen this dress.
Я не кормил эту собаку. I have not fed this dog.
Я ничего не сказал этим людям. I have not said anything to these people.


You don't have anything like this with the second usage of это.

Another important difference is, probably, that you cannot use modifiers with pronouns (e.g. you cannot say "Я видел этих их", "Эта она - красивая") but can use это as a pronoun with pronoun, e.g. Это - они. Это она. Это он. Это я.
Это я написал эту книгу. It was me who wrote the book.
Это ты разбил чашку. It was you who has broken the cup.

[kutsuwamushi.livejournal.com]

Just as an addition to the previous comment:

The words это, эта, and этот are modifiers, used to describe a noun; they agree with the gender (and case) of the noun. For example, oryx_and_crake's "Эта книга - интересная" example.

However, это isn't always a modifier--it can be used as a pronoun on its own. When you use it as a pronoun, it doesn't agree in gender with the thing you're talking about; it's always это.

You may have been able to figure that out from the last comment, but I thought I'd make it obvious. =)

[semionov.livejournal.com]

be careful with dashes.
"Эта книга интересная" requies no dash. Интересная is a predicate in this context.

[semionov.livejournal.com]

hyphen I mean

[solito.livejournal.com]

When you should use "dash"!

[semionov.livejournal.com]

slow down.
yes, you're right, thanks.

[kutsuwamushi.livejournal.com]

I've always been under the impression that dashes are a stylistic choice: not required and not usually used, but not incorrect either. (I thought it lent a little emphasis to the equation.)

Is this not true nowadays, or have I got it wrong? I admit that most of my experience with Russian literature has been old-fashioned.

[semionov.livejournal.com]

Of course, sometimes usage of dashes depends on emphasis only. But there are some strict rules.
This comment (http://www.livejournal.com/community/learn_russian/182104.html?thread=2088280#t2088280) by solito will clarify something.

[oryx_and_crake]

Well, I happen to be a native speaker of Russian, and somehow I'll know whether I need a dash in my phrase or not. I don't need books on grammar for that.

This awful, tricky Russian

[virtualsushi.livejournal.com]

But the worst danger hides in the title of your message.
The noun "член" has too many meanings (including "penis"), so one should use it with a proper care.
It sounds rather funny, esp. when starts with a capital letter.
;)

Re: This awful, tricky Russian

[virtualsushi.livejournal.com]

I mean, in such a case people usually say "Я новичок", to avoid double meanings.

Re: This awful, tricky Russian

[yuia.livejournal.com]

I was about to say the exact same thing :)

just like in english, "member" can mean penis as well.

He could have also said "я - новый член этого сообщества (коммьюнити)" and that would be okay.

[welgar.livejournal.com]

A-ha. Just without a hyphen after "я": they are almost never used after pronouns in Russian.

[semionov.livejournal.com]

NOTICE: after personal pronouns!
see also here (http://www.livejournal.com/users/rooskiyroulette/1654.html)

[yuia.livejournal.com]

beg to differ, I am a native speaker and my grandmother and I were discussing this very thing this weekend: if you are elaborating on something (describing?) you most definately need a hyphen. the way grandma explained it to me was, that it basically stands for "есть" or in english, "am, is, are". This is only in the written language, obviously and would be replaced with a pause (like a comma) in speech. Examples:

я - отличный пианист
он - младший брат моего друга

however,

он очень хорошо играет на флейте, он младше моего друга.

This may just be an exception to the pronoun rule though :)

[welgar.livejournal.com]

Not exactly so. In examples "он очень хорошо играет на флейте", "он младше моего друга" hyphen is not needed anyway (replace the pronoun with a noun and you'll see).

It is acceptable to use hyphens after personal pronouns when you need to deliberately stress the idea you are expresing. E.g., one shouldn't use a hyphen in phrases like "он младший брат моего друга" or "я очень образованный человек". However, it is possible (but not necessary) to write "Я - математик" if this fact is considered really an important thing.

Как все-таки все запутано тут у вас у всех!!!

[solito.livejournal.com]

[http://users.livejournal.com/_duchess/]

без "-" :) уверяю вас :)

[semionov.livejournal.com]

я - отличный пианист
он - младший брат моего друга
no hyphen is requied, i'm sure.
Compare:
"Он говорит, что я посредственный пианист. Он считает, что для меня важно только выучить музыкальный текст и просмотреть расставленные в нём акценты, что я не вкладываю ни капли чувста в музыку, которую играю. Нет! Я переживаю это всей душой, я дышу этой музыкой, я сливаюсь с этими звуками в единое целое! Я - отличный пианист!"
Only in very weighty utterances.

[azazellodroog.livejournal.com]

gee, boys.. reading you i have to learn russian more than i want to (;

[solito.livejournal.com]

>Он говорит, что я посредственный пианист

Here the dash can be used - depending on the emphasis. "Он говорит, что я — посредственный пианист"

[solito.livejournal.com]

1) It's not a hyphen (дефис), it's a dash (тире)
2) You are not correct, the dash usage rules are complicated, but there is nothing about "almost never used after pronouns in Russian" - it is simply wrong! If you are interested, look at Ditmar Rosenthal's "Справочник по правописанию и литературной правке" - Chapter 21 "Тире между членами предложения" (pages 90-95).

n.b.

[azazellodroog.livejournal.com]

fair enough.

and please remember that russian "это" is also widely used by people who can't really speak russian properly.. being, indeed, native speakers..

take this dialog as an example, for example:

- ты, это, как его, покрась стену не в этот, как это, не в синий, а в этот, ну, блять, в красный покрась, ага.
- ты, это, совершенно совесть что ли потерял, a?! я, как это, типа, в красный красить эту стену не буду! красный - это, это, как его, плохой цвет!

the above dialog can be roughly translated into enlgish as follows:

- you, like, y'know, colour the wall not this, y'know, not blue, but, well, damn it, colour it red, uhuh.
- you have, like, no shame at all, haven't you, eh?! i, kinda, y'know, will not colour this wall red! red is, like, y'know, a bad colour!

[oryx_and_crake]

Well, it depends.
If you look for literal translation, then б***ь is dirty slang word for "whore" (you would not use this speaking to your old granny).
If you want to translate the sense of the phrase so people understand you, you can use "damn" or "fuck", even though literal meaning of these words is different. In fact, in a phrase like this the obscene words are only used to express emotions, not to indicate any real meaning. (Same thing happens in English: when you say "This fucking car won't start again", you don't imply that the car in question is actually involved in a sexual act, do you?)