ведь

[lexabear.livejournal.com]

I've read the яndex.linvo entry on ведь and found it helpful, but some clarification from native speakers would be even further helpful!

The use of ведь seems to be much like English "you know": a throw-in, emphasizing word. In the examples, it seemed to be placed at the beginning of the phrase and without a comma. Is that generally how it works? Also, how often is it used, and is there an age gap in usage like with many other phrases?

Comments

[sekhet.livejournal.com]

Not a native speaker, but since no one else has responded, I'll throw my two cents in. The way I heard it used in Petersburg, Ved' is always used without a comma, and can be either at the beginning of a sentence or adjacent to the word it's emphasizing, i.e.

"A vam nravits'ia tam zhit', v sibirii? Vy ved' moskvich."

"So do you like living there, in Siberia? You are from Moscow, after all."

That usage seems to be slightly more formal (although still a colloquial usage) than the way I heard most people use it, where it is used, as you mentioned, as an equivalent for "you know," but slightly more emotionally fraught (i.e., denoting irritation or excitement as opposed to just emphasis) as in the examples that follow:

"Ona chto, moloko ne kupila? Ved' ya dva raza ei skazala."
"So, she didn't buy the milk? You know, I told her twice."

"On rasserdilsia, no ved' eto zhe ne moya vina."
"He got angry, but, come on, it's not my fault, after all.

"U tebia est' novaia kassetka Zemfiry? Zdorovo! Ved' ona moia liubimaia!"
"You have the new Zemfira cassette? Cool! She's, like, my favorite."

The "ved' on doma?" usage that the site mentions is a little confrontational, sort of a "You won't connect me to him? But he's there, right?"

I heard it used fairly frequently in casual, colloquial settings, by people of all ages; but while its usage is generally accepted among friends and relatives, my sense is, like "you know" and "like" in English, in Russian it's something of a "slovo-parazit" whose use, while not incorrect, isn't quite... refined.

Again, I'm not a native speaker, so please feel free to jump in. Also, this is St. Petersburg usage; other regions may have differing styles.

[sekhet.livejournal.com]

sorry, clarification point: I meant to say that using it by the word that's being emphasized, as in the first example, seems more formal than using it at the beginning of the phrase, as in the other examples.

And a note on vowel reduction -- I'm sure you knew this already, but it's always pronounced "vid'", as in "nesovreshenniy vid," but with a soft "d" :)

[yers.livejournal.com]

no, it's not a slovo-parazit ("значит" is one) and it's stylistically neutral (unlike, say, "раз" in the sense of "since" (as in "since it happened anyway"), whose refined equivalent is "коль скоро").

otherwise your explanation is excellent, I've thought of replying to this post but failed to find the right terms.

let me just supply the Cyrillic for your sample sentences:

А вам нравится там жить, в Сибири? Вы ведь москвич.


Она что, молоко не купила? Ведь я два раза ей сказала.

Он рассердился, но ведь это же не моя вина.

У тебя есть новая кассетка Земфиры? Здорово! Ведь она моя любимая! (I bet this is a girl speaking :-)

[sekhet.livejournal.com]

thanks for the cyrillic :)

I know that it's not technically a slovo-parazit, but my impression from the sticklers for linguistic precision with whom I associated was that it was not necessarily the couthest thing to say (it seemed either to be textbook-style overly formal colloquial, as in the first example, or a little teeny-bopper, as in the latter examples). Has that not been your experience? What region have you spent the most time in?

And as concerns Zemfira, yes, I am a girl... but I am not a member of the fan club. I was in Petersburg when you could not escape "iskala" wherever you went... it managed to find you (no pun intended) wherever you went. So chalk it up to overexposure... ;)

[yers.livejournal.com]

actually all I meant was that some intonation subtleties of the last sentence made me think that it was said by a girl, of the kind that deliberately try to sound 'girly'. if it was you who said it then it's probably, as you beautifully put it, textbook-style overly formal colloquial. no offence meant in either case.

I was born in Moscow and spent most of my time there before I left the country, but ultimately Russian's not that different from region to region. ведь sounds perfectly in place in a classical poem, in a philosophical essay, etc. however, it really is sometimes used in the place of же, which would be less colloquial. and a combination of both "ведь" and "же" in one sentence also doesn't belong to the literary language. that's all I can think of.