"We speak for ourselves"

[eavanmoore.livejournal.com]

Hi everyone,

I am hoping to translate a specific phrase into Russian, and I'm wondering if any of you can help. The slogan of the environmental justice movement in the US is "we speak for ourselves." Is there non-awkward Russian translation for this?

The meaning of this slogan is that marginalized communities a) have opinions about what they want to happen to their communities and b) have the right to participate in decision-making. No one can pretend to speak for them.

For example, a predominantly black or Latino neighborhood will fight against a garbage dump being located there just because rich white people don't want in their neighborhoods.

Another example: In my city a couple of years ago, the transit agency ended the zone system and instituted a flat fare across the city that was higher than any previous fares. They claimed this helped poor people who lived on the outskirts of town and therefore had to travel longer distances. But none of the poor people I talked to about it liked this approach or had been consulted before it was put in place.

Is there a common Russian expression for this kind of feeling? Or if not, is there a way to express it in one sentence?

Thank you! Spasibo bolshoe!

Comments

[vsjo-taki.livejournal.com]

"Мы отстаиваем свои права"
"Мы отстаиваем наши права"
"Мы постоим за себя"

Looks reasonable like this.
However, any common Russian expression is never absolutely common. :-)

[eavanmoore.livejournal.com]

Thanks so much! I think I like "Мы постоим за себя" best of those three. :-)

What do you mean when you say that "any common Russian expression is never absolutely common?"

[oryx_and_crake]

I would say "Мы стоим за себя". "Постоим" is the future tense.

[vsjo-taki.livejournal.com]

Russians like exceptions.

Глас народа: Народ говорит

[lion-casserole.livejournal.com]

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I guess the major idea of this motto is: "We are our own advocates".

That could be translated into a motto "Защитим свои права" ("Защищай свои права") or -- which is closer to the original -- "Мы защищаем свои интересы". This last one would not be easy to cry aloud on a meeting due of this sentence rhythmic.

[eavanmoore.livejournal.com]

Thank you! Yes, I think "We are our own advocates" sums it up.

I'm curious -- Does Russian have a "voice" metaphor in this context? Advocacy rhetoric in English often mentions "voice" in both a literal sense (testifying at hearings, yelling at protests, producing film documentaries) and also a metaphorical sense (expressing yourself or influencing decisions is 'having a voice.')

It sounds like that's not the first thing that comes to mind when you're thinking of an equivalent in Russian. You mentioned "narod govorit," but is that a common phrase? And is it possible to say, "U nas est' glac" or something like that, or would it sound weird? (Sorry about the transliteration, I can't do Cyrillic on this computer.)

[http://users.livejournal.com/__whoami__/]

I'd say, "решать - нам!" or "здесь решаем мы!"

[eavanmoore.livejournal.com]

Thank you!

[elvit.livejournal.com]

I wouldn't call "narod govorit" a common phrase but it immediately drags a very well known quote "Народ безмолвствует" (people keep silent) from Boris Godunov by Pushkin. And in this opposition "народ говорит"...perhaps contains some power?..

[marsianka-selma.livejournal.com]

"Решать - нам!" or "Нам решать!" sounds great to me!

[leonore.livejournal.com]

I agree with you, "Нам решать!" is the best option. It means "It is us to decide!" and has the additional meaning of what is described in the second situation (about the poor).

[eavanmoore.livejournal.com]

Another vote for this one! Noted. Thank you!

[eavanmoore.livejournal.com]

They are the spice of life. :-)

[eavanmoore.livejournal.com]

Thanks!

That is not common in modern Russia

[lion-casserole.livejournal.com]

.
You see, the idea of mobs/folks speaking for themselves was compromised by Bolshevik's-style Soviets (власть Советов == власть Советов депутатов трудящихся == советская власть).

A range of useful mottoes was used over the time and these are now associated with Russian Communist's rhetoric. In "The Internationale" -- once it was the Communists' Party and USSR state anthem -- there are lines:
[...]
Никто не даст нам избавленья (избавления),
Ни Бог, ни царь, и не герой.
Добьемся мы освобожденья (освобождения)
Своею собcтвенной рукой.
[...]

или вот еще, a motto of a Socialist Revolutionary Party: "В борьбе обретешь ты право свое".

I don't think you want it being colored in this way. We are not speaking about modern Russia here, so there is a need in some adequate, but not compromised sentence.

As it was mentioned already, there is a well known Pushkin's line: "Народ безмолствует", so this "Народ говорит" could be easily recognized as that phrase promotion. It would be interpreted as "Now we are strong enough to rise our voice speaking for ourselves", in short, that is close to what you proposed: "У нас есть свой собственный голос".

In this context a motto "Защищай свои права" (and its variants, e.g. "Защитим свои права") sound fine and is adequate enough. -- I am keeping in mind the phrase should be rhythmic --

In addition, just a comment. Please notice, the word "глас" (an old-style form of "голос") nowadays in mainly used in poets' style sentences, e.g. "Глас народа - глас Божий."

I desagree

[lion-casserole.livejournal.com]

.
They are not judges nor masters, they are looking for a honest judgement and they are ready to provide their arguments and fight for their rights.

[eavanmoore.livejournal.com]

Thanks, this is really interesting! It's too bad that language of self-determination was appropriated that way.

I did wonder about "glas," as I hadn't seen it before.

You are welcome

[lion-casserole.livejournal.com]

.
Yep, some words and sentences are changing their "hard-coded" sin, so that is not easy to find right ones.

For example (don't waste your time, this is just for fun), the above mentioned SR Party's motto was well known in early years of 20 Century in Russia, however... check out this one, from "The Golden Calf" novel:
>>
— Этот ребус трудненько будет разгадать, — говорил Синицкий, похаживая вокруг столовника. — Придется вам посидеть над ним!
— Придется, придется, — ответил Корейко с усмешкой, — только вот гусь меня смущает. К чему бы такой гусь? А-а-а! Есть! Готово! «В борьбе обретешь ты право свое»?
— Да, — разочарованно протянул старик, — как это вы так быстро угадали? Способности большие. Сразу видно счетовода первого разряда.
— Второго разряда, — поправил Корейко. — А для чего вы этот ребус приготовили? Для печати?
— Для печати.
— И совершенно напрасно, — сказал Корейко, с любопытством поглядывая на борщ, в котором плавали золотые медали жира. Было в этом борще что-то заслуженное, что-то унтер-офицерское. — «В борьбе обретешь ты право свое» — это эсеровский лозунг. Для печати не годится.
<<

[http://users.livejournal.com/__whoami__/]

That's right, they are looking for an honest judgement. But it's clear (well, to me) that the main idea through the post's text is that they wouldn't want anybody to decide for them, would they? They want to participate in decision making, actively; and perhaps be the only decision makers! Hence, I employed "решать" here. Btw, the second option was "выбирать", which would also be about right.

They want powers listing

[lion-casserole.livejournal.com]

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They don't want somebody they don't trust speaking for them.

Their problem is: they aren't represented in discussions or their opinion is represented in a wrong way. They do not trust their current representatives (lawyers, delegates, Government men, I don't care who is there to speak for them). They want to participate in discussions because they aren't satisfied in current situation, they have sound arguments, and they are looking for legal changes and justice. They are acting according to the laws, they aren't breaking the law. That is how Democracy should work for people.

My point here is: when a group of people pretends they are the solo decision maker, that is a way to a fight, a war, or a dictatorship.

"Мы заставим вас cоблюдать закон и учитывать наши интересы" vs "Будет, как мы продиктуем".

[eavanmoore.livejournal.com]

I think you're both right, and it depends on the situation. Sometimes there are competing valid interests, and a government has to make a decision after hearing all sides. But sometimes a group feels that its specific needs so clearly override other interests that there's only one right decision to be made. And in that situation, "We decide!" seems appropriate, because if things were fair then their opinion would be the only one that counted. Environmental justice movements have included both situations in the past.

I guess this leads me to wonder: Can Нам решать! include the idea that people want to help decide, or does it strongly suggest that the group is the only one doing the deciding?

Depends on intonation

[lion-casserole.livejournal.com]

.
When they have to choose from a range of proposed and discussed options, then "Нам решать" means "We have to make the decision, that is our responsibility":
- Мы может взять такси или подождать автобус, это нам решать.

When they don't care if there could be another valid option or opinion, then "Нам решать" means "Shut up everyone, we are the boss here":
- На каком языке вы обязаны подать заявление - это нам решать.

[larqui.livejournal.com]

Probably the best version. Translates the meaning well.

[http://users.livejournal.com/__whoami__/]

You are right again: "Будет, как мы продиктуем" is inappropriate here, and the "Нам решать!" I suggested didn't mean it, which I explained in the previous comment already. Besides, you are talking about the exact same idea of the context of use in another comment below, so the problem's solved, and the translation is fine.