"Мы с Вами" types of construction

[david-us.livejournal.com]

In English we say "You and I are going to the theater." This causes many English speakers to say "Вы и я идем в театр" which, I understand, Russians never say. Instead, they prefer the construction "Мы с Вами идем в театр."

First of all, is the first sentence (Вы и я) grammatically incorrect? Or, is it just awkward sounding?

It seems verb conjugation is inconsistent with this construction. For instance, I recently ran across this sentence. "Брат с сестрой читают." There is a subject (Брат - 3rd person singular) and a prepositional phrase (с сестрой) - yet the verb is conjugated as if the subject is 3rd person plural which, in a way, makes sense - but is inconsistent with the subject. 

Very odd - and a bit confusing for us English speakers.

I guess one has to look at it this way:
Брат с сестрой = они

David Emerling
Memphis, TN

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

1. Never capitalize Вы, Ваш etc. unless it is in a formal letter.
2. Вы и я идем в театр - a native speaker would not put it that way, it sounds awkward. I am not sure about it being outright ungrammatical - probably it falls into gray area. However, Боря и Маша идут в театр is acceptable.
3. Брат с сестрой читают - I guess your reasoning is correct (since брат с сестрой are two people, the verb is in plural).

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

It's not grammatically incorrect, but the usage of this construction requires quite specific context. I'd say, it may (and may not) be used
a) in romantic context ("В этом мире есть только ты и я"),
b) when "you" and "me" are selected from a larger list ("Кто из сотрудников попал под сокращение?" - "Ты и я").
This list can most probably be supplemented, but really, "мы с тобой/вами" will do quite everywhere.

[wollorin.livejournal.com]

I would add that No.3 depends on the situation. You understood that брат с сестрой make one plural "they", "они", and you have to use the verb in plural. This means that both of them are doing the same thing equally, they are both reading.

But there is another situation, which allows you to use the verb in singular form, it would be "Брат с сестрой читает". This situation shows us thie brother as a main acting person who is reading. And his sister is heping him, for example, so her acting is not so important as her brother's is.
It is also acceptable to say "Брат читает с сестрой", that shows the brother as a protagonist more clearly.

Or there can be an opposit situation, when mother says "Я читаю с твоим братом" ("I'm reading with your brother"), where mother still determines the verb form, but not acting as a main person, she sits and litsens to the reading, helps and teaches, so she has the same role as the sister in the previous example, but she's not reading herself, she's controling the process.

The second example of singular form in the sentence is closer to real speech and being used more often than the first one.

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

Anyway, "ты/вы и я" followed by a verb does sound weird and I strongly suppose that it IS grammatically incorrect. I guess the "мы/вы/они с..." construction was invented by the language exactly to avoid this incorrectness: you just can't say "ты и я идём" because neither "ты идём", nor "я идём" is possible.

[dekarmi.livejournal.com]

/makes sense - but is inconsistent with the subject/
Yes. I am sure you'll run across a lot of such inconsistencies in Russian.

(Learn English - it is much easier :) )

[voleala.livejournal.com]

In your context, it should be "мы с вами идем..." или "мы с тобой идем". I would say that the other one is grammatically correct but stylistically wrong.

Note: if you speak to a third person and say "my friend and I went to the theater", put the pronoun I in the first place: я с другом ходил в театр or мы с другом ходили в театр. Russians put I in the first place. It's a funny thing about Russians. Not very modest, right? This is a typical mistake Russians make when trying to speak English or Spanish (for ex.), they say "I and my friend...", "yo y mi amigo".

[david-us.livejournal.com]

Then, wouldn't "Брат (с сестрой) читают" be equally impossible. After all, We don't say "Брат читают", do we?

[khathi.livejournal.com]

2. As I see it, it's entirely correct from grammatical standpoint, but simply isn't used -- there are lots an lots of such unproductive paradigms in Russian -- just see genitive plural. $)

[khathi.livejournal.com]

Because there is a concept of compound subject in Russian. Namely compound nominal subject in this case. Plural verb here refers not to the brother alone, but to the BOTH siblings, because "брат с сестрой" is treated as a single immutable subject in plural.

[karakal.livejournal.com]

me and my friend is absolutely ok. conversationally, at least. -:)

[surkova.livejournal.com]

you may come across 'Брат читают' in classic literature (what I can think of now is 'Oblomov'), but now it's not used at all.

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

My usual problem replying to he posting before reading it to the end :)
Well, probably nouns are more resistant to number disagreement than pronouns. I don't have other ideas :)

[hyyudu.livejournal.com]

In XIX century it was usual to speak about high-ranked person in plural not only talking to him ("Барин, вы пойдете на бал?"), but also talking about him ("Барин пойдут на бал")

[liana-23b.livejournal.com]

1. I don't think that it's a good idea to give this advise to foreign speakers. Because it is a theme of great argue between natives. Some people think that you should capitalise "Вы" only in formal speech, and others think that you should do it always except plural form. We don't know truth because there is no truth, so let people decide themeselves.
P.S. Sorry for my bad english ^)

[oryx_and_crake]

There is no "some people think" and "there is no truth", there are very clear rules about when Вы should and should not be capitalized. Read Rosenthal.

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

As already noted, "me and my friend" is perfectly correct.

Besides that, your allegations about Russians sound quite russophobic.
It is quite impolite in Russian to put "Я" in the first place when
listing persons.

"Я, Вася, Петя, Маша и Даша ходили на речку" will show you as a selfish and egocentric person.
The right way to compile the list is: "Вася, Петя, Маша, Даша и я ходили на речку".

Also please notice that unlike English, in Russian "я" ("I") is never capitalized unless it's the first letter in the sentense. That's speaking about modesty.

[spiritrc.livejournal.com]

"Вы и я" in no way equals "you vs. me".
Unfortunately it's a common mistake of us Russians to take "vs." for "with" while in fact "vs." stands for "versus" ("против"). I believe the confusion is because we generally don't feel the difference between 'v' and 'w' and betweeen 's' and 'th'.