cyrilic alphabet - logic!?

[ruriktochkase.livejournal.com]

Ok. I have to admit, that learning cyrilic alphabet was for me somewhat of a puzzle.
A puzzle that I have not been able to solve for past 24 years.
And the more other languages I understand (especially other slavic lang. that use cyrilics),
the more odd the Russian cyrilic system seems to me.

I will try to explain what I mean the best I can.
But Im not sure that my knowledge of phonetics is good enough,
but Im sure that there are some other people around here (f.ex. thouse who have czech or polish as mother tounge),
who will see what I mean, and plz .  do not be shy in transforming my question into more internationally understandible.

Look, in Russian there is a letter "е"  and it is actionly a combination of й+э, or in some cases just plane э. (whith softer consonant)
Than there is ю which is a combination of й+у. or just y (w.softer consonant)
Than there is я which is й+а
Than there is ё which is й+o

So? so 2 questions:

1st: WHY? why choose 1 consonant "й", and separate into separate letters the combination of it w. vowel ? ? ? 

I mean one could say that its some necesity of cyrilic alphabet, but its not. I can not see any situation were the letters "е ё ю я" would be impossible to replace by combination of other letters.
F.ex. in serbian (where they use in cyrilic same "j" as in English), they spell "Ja" instead of "я".
and if one would wanna make the consonant softer there is always "ь", right ???
Ok, fine, lets say one wants to make a language w. as few symbols in every word as possible. thus one would need more letters.
Seems logical. but why isn't there letters like "Ka", "Ko", and all the other combinations of consonant + vowel, with its own separate letter ?

So, I still can't get the logic. Does anyone get it ?

2nd: Whats the story? what was the historic background?
what was the reason for making "й" this very special letter,
with all the own letters for combination with vowels?
was it Cyrill that fell in love w. it?
or prehaps some of thouse letters came up after Lenins reform of Russian?
 

 

Comments

[dvanoltri.livejournal.com]

They are needed to show that the previous consonant should be soft. This is there main sense. There is no other construction for this in russian.

[romik-g.livejournal.com]

Here is what we have in English alphabet, compared to Russian:
jh - ж
ph - ф
ts - ц
ch - ч
sh - ш
sh' - щ
you - ю

I can't get the logic too =)

[zoa-mel-gustar.livejournal.com]

You forgot, that these letters is not just a combination of й ans some over letter. What about words like "племя"? "Племйа" doesn't sounds like that at all,
But even "яблоко" "йаблоко" wouldn't be the same. Every native Russian speaker would pronounce and hear it in a different way. I think, that's because in Russian sounds are more separated, then in English, we pronounce every letter... So you can't make one sound as a combination of two letters.
But don't worry, Russians always have problems with "th", then they're learning English.

P.S. No, Lenin's reforms was very insignificant and just made language more simple.

[imorl.livejournal.com]

Right.
Phonemes Ленин, Льенин, Льэнин, Лйэнин or, as post author suggests, Льйэнин are absolutely different.

[oryx_and_crake]

So many unnecessary letters! Cyril and Mephody should just have used English alphabet from the very beginning, to avoid confusion.

[imorl.livejournal.com]

Sorry, the last one must be Льйэньйын by author's theory.

[irre.livejournal.com]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Short_I

Active use of <Й> (or, rather, the breve over <И>) began around the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries. Since the middle of the seventeenth century, the differentiation between <И> and <Й> has become obligatory in the Russian variant of Church Slavonic orthography (used for the Russian language as well). During the alphabet reforms of Peter I, all diacritic marks were removed from the Russian writing system, but shortly after his death in 1735, the distinction between <И> and <Й> was restored. <Й> was not officially considered a separate letter of the alphabet until the 1930s.

...but I think the very special letter is this one:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yo_%28Cyrillic%29

[dinasty.livejournal.com]

I would say that these letters are not exactly just a composition of й and other vowel, they do make a difference to the sound.
Compare, for example, words нос and нёс. You can't say that it's only the consonant н which sounds differently here. The vowel sound is softer as well.

So you do need all the vowels as well as the letter й (as it is a separate sound as well).

[o-jovem-louco.livejournal.com]

Yes, you are absolutely right. There is little logic, especially compared to Serbian.
For example, ь and й NEVER occur in the samo position: ь occurs only after consonants and й occurs only after vowels and in word-initial position.

Letters like ю etc. have historical origin. E.g., "iоу" -> "iо" -> "ю". The old letter for я was used to indicate a nasal sound, like Polish "ę", and therefore required a separate letter. So it is a mere tradition, and it is useless to try to find much sense in it.

[besisland.livejournal.com]

No, they are not.

Ленин = Льэнин.

[ruriktochkase.livejournal.com]

Compare, for example, words нос and нёс.
- - -
try spelling it like THIS:

"ньос"

and ANY russian speaking person will get eeexactly the same sound out of this combination of letters, as from "нёс" ;)

ньос = нёc

:)

[besisland.livejournal.com]

It does sound like that at all.

[kagury.livejournal.com]

+1000!!! :))

[ruriktochkase.livejournal.com]

Ленин = Льэнин
- - -
could be read in exactly the same way,
but the rules of Russian phonetics :)

[lysdanslavallee.livejournal.com]

for russian speakers it's completely different.

[ruriktochkase.livejournal.com]

nope... not "Льйэньйын".

Ленин = Льэнин

and I have never ever said that the letter ы is same thing as the letter и .
thouse 2 are significantly diffrent sounds.

The fact that the word Ленин consists of exactly the same sounds as the word Льэнин,
could be learned during "Фонетический разбор", that is included in Russian textbooks for 10 y.o.

I think in Russia they had it as early as 4th grade.

[lysdanslavallee.livejournal.com]

believe to native russian speaker - these words aren't the same ))

[ruriktochkase.livejournal.com]

nope...

e = йэ

catch a Russian speaker anywhere near you, make him pronounce these two, and you will here that they are exactly alike.
on top of it if you read russian school textbooks for 4th grade, you will see that during "фонетический разбор" you learn that it is this way.

[tlkh.livejournal.com]

Russian redundant letters make text shorter.
If you search for logic, may be you can you explain why does English need "q", "y", "x", "c", but does not have a letter for "th"?

[imorl.livejournal.com]

In distinctly articulated phoneme Льэнин you'll hear a little pause between the soft Ль and э.

[ruriktochkase.livejournal.com]

;)))
aaand once again,
yes, they are :)

catch a Russian speaker anywhere near you, make him pronounce these two, and you will here that they are exactly alike.
on top of it if you read russian school textbooks for 4th grade, you will see that during "фонетический разбор" you learn that it is this way.

[ruriktochkase.livejournal.com]

how about taking look at another SLAVIC languages who ALSO use Cyrilic?! ;)))

for example Serbian: я = Ja
and their alphabet is still called cyrilic last I checked.
but prehaps I'm out of the loop on that one?! ;)

[oryx_and_crake]

Well, I sincerely apologize for Cyril and Mephody who were so inconsiderate as to cause you inconvenience :-)

[huzhepidarasa.livejournal.com]

That's Methody for you ;)
Talk about logic in the alphabet.

[besisland.livejournal.com]

Well, it at least makes spelling a bit shorter.