Question about case and participles

[philena.livejournal.com]

Hello,

If I want to say something like "I see the man who is reading all by himself," what case would I put on один? Would it be something like

Я вижу человека, читающего одного

Or would the сам need to be dative, as it sometimes is in embedded clauses:

Я вижу человека, читающего одному

Or are both correct? Or is neither correct? I am particularly interested in the case relation between the participle and один, so if there are better examples to illustrate it with, please let me know what they are.

Thank you.

Comments

[icamel.livejournal.com]

читающего в одиночестве

[hyyudu.livejournal.com]

This depends on what are you wanna say.
If "reading by himself" means he reads with his own eyes, it's not an audio-book, and nobody reads aloud for him - then "он читает сам".
If it means he is alone, nobody is near him - "он читает в одиночку/в одиночестве".
Я вижу человека, читающего одного - sounds strange. The closest variant is like "Я вижу человека, читающего одного Пушкина" (for example) - I see the man who is reading only Pushkin, not other books. But here it's better to say "читающего только Пушкина".
Я вижу человека, читающего одному - means he reads aloud to one listener. Я вижу профессора, читающего лекцию одному студенту - I see the professor who is reading the lecture to one (single) student.

[kovalev-oleg.livejournal.com]

Я вижу человека, читающего все самостоятельно.

В дательном патеже: Дать что-то человеку читающему все самостоятельно.

[boolka.livejournal.com]

dativ goes well with "дать" - give smth to smn
i give smth to him only - я даю что-либо ему одному
but "i see someone" needs a question "whom do i see?" - кого я вижу? кОГО -однОГО, кОМУ - однОМУ and so on

[burrru.livejournal.com]

именно так

[oryx_and_crake]

я вижу человека, который читает один / в одиночестве
я вижу людей, которые читают вдвоем, втроем, впятером

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

Yes, best is "в одиночку", but also possible "я вижу человека, который читает один" or, in certain contexts, "я вижу, как человек читает один".
Really the combination of a participle and один occurs only in nominative (идущий один по дороге); when any different case occurs, or when один appears near an oblique case participle, you have to rebuild the sentence:

Покажи мне людей, уверенных в завтрашнем дне,
Нарисуй мне портреты погибших на этом пути,
Покажи мне того, кто выжил один из полка...

"Выжившего" is impossible here.

[zauberer.livejournal.com]

Both are incorrect in terms of conveying your original meaning. This meaning cannot be conveyed with specific case, you should use another construction like "Я вижу человека, который читает сам" (if you mean that there's nobody assisting him) or "Я вижу человека, который читает один" (if you mean that there's nobody around him).

Your example is not very good because it leads to confusion (or probably is caused by your confusion). The word "один" in your original English meaning is not an object but a circumstance, and in your Russian suggestions because of your use of a participle it became an object (direct object with "одного" and indirect object with "одному") which made both suggestions semantically different from what you meant in the first place. The second suggestion is, however, grammatically and syntactically correct, but it means roughly "I see the man who is reading (smth) to a sole (listener)".

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

*Another way to rebuild the sentence is to get rid of один: "Покажи мне единственного выжившего из полка" would be possible. In your case, as said above, it would be "в одиночку/в одиночестве".
"Сам" is also a word incompatible with an oblique case participle. I don't know whether there are any other examples; maybe there are, but I can't think of any right away.

[trilbyhat.livejournal.com]

Читающего в одиночестве is perfectly correct and literate.
Using a participle читающего is a sign of a written speech or formal style, therefore you HAVE to be perfectly correct. Now, if you get rid of the participle, you can say smth like Я вижу парня, который сидит один и читает. Я увидела чувака, на скамейке, одного – просто сидел и читал, прикинь?

[malim-praedari.livejournal.com]

Neither one of your translations would be used by a native speaker. The first one is technically correct (the case is right) but it sounds awkward. The second one is incorrect; you wouldn't use the dative case here.

The closest proper rendering of your example is: "Я вижу человека, читающего в одиночестве" (or "Я вижу мужчину, читающего в одиночестве", depending on your exact meaning). This is correct but rather formal-sounding. You probably wouldn't use it in casual speech. The use of the participle is what makes it sound literary.

A more conversational way to say this would be: "Я вижу, как человек/мужчина/парень сидит один и читает".

[philena.livejournal.com]

Neither one of your translations would be used by a native speaker. The first one is technically correct (the case is right) but it sounds awkward. The second one is incorrect; you wouldn't use the dative case here.

I am particularly interested in what happens when there's a participle and один or сам toɡether in a clause. The particular sentences or meanings expressed are not important. Could you give a more natural example of a construction like the one that you said was "technically" correct? For example, as I was googling around, I found this on a Russian blog:

Интересная лекция – двухчасовая интерпретация некоторых страниц Корана от человека, не читающего по-арабски.

I translate it as something like, "An interesting lecture--a two-hour interpretation of several pages of the Koran from a man who does not read Arabic." Would it be possible to use "сам" here, for a meaning like "from a man who does not read Arabic himself"?

. . . от человека, не читающего по-арабски самого.

Again, I'm not concerned with the particular sentence; I just want to see what happens with the cases when there's a participle and a сам or один together, both referring to the same person. Do they always match? Is dative case never used (excepting, of course, instances in which the participle is dative)?

[oryx_and_crake]

No, you will not use "самого" in this context. You can say "от человека, который сам не читает по-арабски". That's the only way of saying this I can think of right now.

I also don't exactly see how you can use один in this sentence. Сам in this case does not mean один, even though in some cases these words can be synonyms. "от человека, который один не читает по-арабски" means "from a man who is the only one not being able to read Arabic" which means a totally different thing.

[oryx_and_crake]

The first one is technically correct (the case is right)
---
I do not agree. The case being right is not enough for the entire construction to be right. You cannot say it is even "technically" correct, as it is so awkward and makes instantly clear that the entire sentence is not written by a native speaker.

[malim-praedari.livejournal.com]

I should emphasize that when I said your 1st example was "technically" correct, I did not mean correct as in okay to use in speech. It simply satisfies a certain linguistic template but, again, NO native speaker would use a construction like this.

In fact, I cannot think of a single example where a participle and "один" or "сам" would be together in a clause. They just don't go together. The only way to pair them is to use adverbial forms: "самолично", or "самостоятельно", or "в одиночку", or "в одиночестве".

[xiefyn.livejournal.com]

In your first sentence "reading" (verbal) is modified by the adverbial phrase. The same way in Russian "читающего" could be modified by adverb (which doesn't have any case) or adverbial phrase / clause. = Я вижу человека, читающего самостоятельно.

Your Russian samples seem to be lacking an object:
Я вижу человека, читающего одного + известного автора.
Я вижу человека, читающего одному + ребенку.

Regarding the case relation: Тhe case of the participle is determined by the noun / pronoun it modifies. Other modifiers of the same noun / pronoun would have the same case as the participle, but still the case would be determined by the noun / pronoun, not by the participle.
В громадном зале библиотеки я увидел только одного читающего человека.
Он задал вопрос одному читающему человеку.

In my opinion, something like ...от человека, самого не читающего по–арабски... is rather acceptable, but some other responders seem to disagree, so I won't insist.