быть and стать

[rocknwill.livejournal.com]

Здравствуйте всем!

I am a new kid on the block here, but I have a query regarding the use of the instrumental case with быть and стать. I know that in certain circumstances it is necessary to use the instrumental after these verbs, but I am unsure of all of the situations whereby this is essential. I know that this is the case in the past and future tenses, but is it so in the conditional? So, if anyone could enlighten me, that would be great!

Спасибо большое!

W

Comments

[surkova.livejournal.com]

if I understood you right:
Если бы ты был (кем?) человеком, ты бы мог говорить.
(If you were a human, you could speak)
Если бы ты стал (кем?) человеком, ты бы мог говорить.
(If you became a human, you could speak)

[pinky-the-cow.livejournal.com]

What other case can be there after these verbs, i wonder.

In "Стать девушки." "Стать" is a noun. Guess I didn't get the question, or surkova has already answered.

[hyyudu.livejournal.com]

Быть - to stay in some state (continuous). Быть сильным - to be strong
Стать - to come in some state (it may be instant or continuous, but always perfect). Стать сильным - to become strong.
Он был слабым, но начал ходить в тренажерный зал и стал сильным - he was weak (for a long time), but started to visit a training hall and became strong

[maceochi.livejournal.com]

Yes, but I think what the author is getting at is that sometimes быть and стать are not followed by the instr. E.g.: Он был всегда очень добрый человек. Why not добрым?

[oryx_and_crake]

In this case you can equally well say он был добрым человеком.

There are some subtleties in using nominative vs. instrumental in this case, and I remember there was something in Rosenthal on this topic, but I cannot find the link right now. In short, if the description refers to a permanent quality, it can be in nominative, but if it is something transient, it has to be in instrumental. Examples:

Его отец был француз/французом, его дед был атеист/атеистом(both nominative and instrumental are possible). Мальчик стал совсем большой.

However, you cannot say он стал врач, only он стал врачом - probably because a profession is not something permanent.

[oryx_and_crake]

Nominative, for example:

Он был очень хороший врач.
Мальчик стал совсем большой.

[oryx_and_crake]

Found it! Section 179, p.3

http://www.evartist.narod.ru/text1/62.htm

[hyyudu.livejournal.com]

Он был всегда очень добрый человек sounds like he stopped to be kind some day (he has dead, or, for example, came to the Dark Side :) )

[alexzzzzz.livejournal.com]

That's just because of past tense.

[rocknwill.livejournal.com]

It is becoming a little clearer now, although I do not understand why oryx_and_crake said the follwing:

"Он был очень хороший врач."

and then:

"However, you cannot say он стал врач, only он стал врачом - probably because a profession is not something permanent."

I was of the understanding that the first instance of врач would be in the instrumental.
With the conditional should one use the instrumental?

I have read the recommended section (179, p.3) in the link provided and whilst it clarifies some things, it makes others less so.

[metaphorisch.livejournal.com]

...he stopped to be kind, he has dead... hmm, dude are you high?

[oryx_and_crake]

I guess all the same rules apply to conditional:

Если бы он был хороший человек / хорошим человеком, он бы никогда так не поступил.

[oryx_and_crake]

P.S. the link I provided says that this distinction is not applied consistently. Just use instrumental all the time and do not bother yourself about that.

[rocknwill.livejournal.com]

So essentially, I would be safer applying the instrumental case at all times and picking up on the nuances in my year abroad as part of my degree?

[oryx_and_crake]

Essentially, yes.

By the way, you would be better off posting your new questions as replies to certain comments or as updates to the original text, because the way you are doing it now, no one will see them unless they open the post and scroll all the way down to read all the comments. On the other hand, if you would have posted your comment in reply to mine above (which it actually was in reply to, I guess), I would have received it as an e-mail and would have replied earlier.

[rocknwill.livejournal.com]

Gotcha! I'll bear that in mind - I'm still learning the ropes, hehehe! Thanks!