A joke and a question

[slovami.livejournal.com]

(x-posted from my journal) Today in my Russian class, our professor told us a joke that I found pretty funny. I thought I'd repost it here, because trying to figure it out can be a good grammar exercise for intermediate Russian learners.

It's a Vasiliy Ivanovich and Petka joke, a genre of jokes that I'm sure native speakers can explain. That's not really important, though, except to know that Vasiliy Ivanovich is V.I. Chapaev, a hero of the Civil War, and Petka is his sidekick. So the joke takes place in the context of the early years of the Soviet Union.

Василий Иванович заходит к Петьке, а тот сидит, что–то пишет. Василий Иванович говорит: "Петька, что ты делаешь?" Петька говорит: "Оперу пишу." Василий Иванович говорит: "О–о, а я и не знал. Много уже написал?" Петька говорит: "Много! Опер будет доволен."

Before you read the explanation, here is a hint: it has to do with ambiguous case endings.

Vasiliy Ivanovich drops in on Petka, who is sitting writing something. He asks: "What are you doing?" Petka says: "I'm writing an opera." Vasiliy Ivanovich says: "Wow, and I had no idea! Have you written a lot?" Petka says: "Yes! The 'oper' will be satisfied."

So, it's a play on words, or rather, a play on cases. When Petka explains what he's writing, it could either be a feminine noun in the accusative (I am writing a thing, like историю, статью). But it could also be a masculine or neuter noun in the dative (I am writing to a person, like брату, Антону, преподавателю). The joke, then, is that "oper" is short for "operative," that is, someone working for the NKVD. He's not writing an opera, he's writing to the police. Those cases, they are so tricky!

And a question: is there a list somewhere of consonant clusters before which в and с become во and со? For example, в Москве, но во Владивостоке, во сне; с малиной, но со сметаной, со вкусом. I used to know them, and I've forgotten. Thanks in advance!

Comments

[pigmeich.livejournal.com]

> And a question: is there a list somewhere of consonant clusters before which в and с become во and со? For example, в Москве, но во Владивостоке, во сне; с малиной, но со сметаной, со вкусом. I used to know them, and I've forgotten.

Simply, it's when you do not want to repeat same consonant: "в" before word starting on "в", for instance.

And about the joke: Петька и Василий Иванович is folklore heroes so there's no historic refernce yet. The police were organized after Chepaev' death, in Chepaev's time there were War Communism and ЧК(Чрезвычайный Комитет Extraordinary Committee). The опер word was popularized in 90's with books of Kivinov. It's derrived from "оперативный отдел", what surely was invented after 1960.

[icamel.livejournal.com]

во сне is not just because of 'с' - compare to в сауне. It is because of that there is too many consonants in a row.

[dair-spb.livejournal.com]

In fact, there's no straight historic reference. These heroes appeared after success of the movie "Chapayev (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2_(%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BC))". Jokes' heroes copy the manners (and just the manners) of that movie's characters.
Thus, Vasily Ivanovich is smart but uneducated, Pet'ka is not that smart as V.I. and he's after An'ka Pulemetchitsa (egh... "Machine gunner"?).

Also, Militia was founded Nov 10th, 1917 (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9C%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B8%D1%86%D0%B8%D1%8F) and Chapayev (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A7%D0%B0%D0%BF%D0%B0%D0%B5%D0%B2,_%D0%92%D0%B0%D1%81%D0%B8%D0%BB%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%98%D0%B2%D0%B0%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B2%D0%B8%D1%87)'s death is Sep 5th, 1919 — almost 2 years after.

"Oper" is a shortage of "operupolnomochennny (http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D1%83%D0%BF%D0%BE%D0%BB%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%87%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9)" — a position in Soviet and modern Russian Militia.

[pigmeich.livejournal.com]

> These heroes appeared after success of the movie "Chapayev". Jokes' heroes copy the manners (and just the manners) of that movie's characters.

Yes, I know. I'm Russian by the way.

> Also, Militia was founded Nov 10th, 1917 and Chapayev's death is Sep 5th, 1919 — almost 2 years after.

But "донос" is under ЧК's jurisdiction in the time.

[alek-morse.livejournal.com]

///It's derrived from "оперативный отдел" ///

rather from "оперативный работник"
If I'm not mistaken, the term "оперативный работник" (shortly, he is a detective in Soviet/Russian police) went yet from 1930s (see film 'My friend Ivan Lapshin' by director Alexey German).

[paraplanka.livejournal.com]

You should use preposition "ВО" in 3 cases:
1. Before many words wich have two or more consonants in row in the beginning.
For example во сне, во Франции, во взоре.
2. Before cases of words "весь" and "всякий": ВО весь опор, ВО всяком случае.
3. In expressions во-первых, во имя, во исполнение, во главе, etc.

[orange-melon.livejournal.com]

Oh, it's so difficult to define the rule when to use в, с and when - во, со.

That's what I've found so far:
"во" is used before the words beginning with "ф/в + consonant" (во Франции, во вторник). And also in some expressions like "во тьме", "во сне", "во сколько".

I also found a rule saying that "во" is used before words beginning with "л/ль/р/м + consonant", and the examples are: во лбу, во мне, во льду, во рту. But I can't completely agree with this rule, because in different cases you say: в ртути, в льдине... maybe this rule applies only to words with one syllable.

[orange-melon.livejournal.com]

And about с/со.
The rule says:
"со" is used before the words beginning with "c/з/ш/ж + consonant" (со стажем, со звездой, со шпагой, со жгутом) or with "щ" (but I don't agree with this rule either, because I think both с щавелем, с щукой and со щавелем, со щукой are possible)

also "so" is used before the words beginning with "л/ль/р/м + consonant" (со лба, со мной, со льдом, со ртом) and with "в + consonant" (со вторника, со всеми, со второго).

[slovami.livejournal.com]

Thanks, both of those comments are really helpful!

[orange-melon.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. I'm glad it helped :)

[pere4-stroika.livejournal.com]

But don't you think there are alot of exception in Russian language? For example во льду, but в льдине. Alot of natives even don't know right version! And they speak as thay can and don't think about it! )))

[orange-melon.livejournal.com]

You're right, there are many exceptions, and for me as a native speaker it is much easier to just use my intuition than recalling the rules. But for people who learn russian as a second language it is important to have a common rule, though it may not apply in some cases.

[just1user.livejournal.com]

>Simply, it's when you do not want to repeat same consonant: "в" before word starting on "в", for instance.

And в/ф , з/с are considered equivalent for this purpose, ("со звонкими", "во фраке") and clusters like "вв", "сс" (without other consonants) are permitted (eg "иметь в виду", "с задней стороны")

Some yandexing reveals
http://www.spelling.spb.ru/rosenthal/alpha/r199.htm - at the bottom of the page.
Note the uncertainty :"2) часто после..." "3) в отдельных фразеологических выражениях,"

[belacane.livejournal.com]

specifically в changes to во when it is in front of a word starting with в/ф and followed directly by another consonant.