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learn_russian
Hello!!
This is my first LJ post (fingers crossed ^_^). I am trying to get more feedback for something I posted somewhere else yesterday, which is directly relevant to learning Russian as a foreign language.
I am repeating my post here and adding the link to the original message so that you could also view other answers I've got if you want to.
Thanks!!
-----------------
( http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1263785 )
Hi all,
I have a few questions to those who is studying/have studied Russian as a foreign language. If you teach Russian, you can also help me!! It's for a survey I am doing for my linguistics studies about how a specific phenomenon is taught/introduced in the classroom/textbooks.
BACKGROUND (very roughly): In Russian, direct objects can be in Accusative (винительный падеж) or Genitive (родительный падеж) if the sentence contains negation.
For example,
NO negation:
-- You can say: Я видел картины (Accusative).
-- You cannot say: Я видел картин (Genitive).
WITH negation:
-- You can say: Я не видел картины (Accusative)
-- You can also say: Я не видел картин (Genitive).
QUESTIONS:
(1) Is this Accusative <--> Genitive alternation normally explained/addressed to (at lease minimally) in textbooks/classroom?
(2) If yes then how is the rule normally formulated textbooks/classroom?
(3) When is this first mentioned: beginner/intermediate/advanced levels?
(4) If you have a specific Russian textbook in mind, that would be awesome!
P.s. I could go to a library and examine all the Russian textbooks it has, but it's hard to know which of those multiple textbooks are actually used. Real life experience from Russian learners or teachers would be most helpful. Thanks for any feedback!!
Hi all,
I have a few questions to those who is studying/have studied Russian as a foreign language. If you teach Russian, you can also help me!! It's for a survey I am doing for my linguistics studies about how a specific phenomenon is taught/introduced in the classroom/textbooks.
BACKGROUND (very roughly): In Russian, direct objects can be in Accusative (винительный падеж) or Genitive (родительный падеж) if the sentence contains negation.
For example,
NO negation:
-- You can say: Я видел картины (Accusative).
-- You cannot say: Я видел картин (Genitive).
WITH negation:
-- You can say: Я не видел картины (Accusative)
-- You can also say: Я не видел картин (Genitive).
QUESTIONS:
(1) Is this Accusative <--> Genitive alternation normally explained/addressed to (at lease minimally) in textbooks/classroom?
(2) If yes then how is the rule normally formulated textbooks/classroom?
(3) When is this first mentioned: beginner/intermediate/advanced levels?
(4) If you have a specific Russian textbook in mind, that would be awesome!
P.s. I could go to a library and examine all the Russian textbooks it has, but it's hard to know which of those multiple textbooks are actually used. Real life experience from Russian learners or teachers would be most helpful. Thanks for any feedback!!
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no subject
Date: 2009-02-05 08:48 am (UTC)from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 09:05 am (UTC)Examle: "Видал картин я и получше" - I saw the pictures what was much better )))
Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 09:32 am (UTC)My example can be used in poetry
Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 10:20 am (UTC)«ВидАл» is just informal form of «видел». Not the special case.
Though, I'm not a teacher, I just native speaker and studied Russian grammar in the school. :)
Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 10:22 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 10:29 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 10:36 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 10:37 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 10:39 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 10:39 am (UTC)You right ))
I ought to go back to school ))
no subject
Date: 2009-02-05 11:22 am (UTC)How you could see, the both forms (Я не видел картины or Я не видел картин) are the forms of accusative.
The form "картин" without "a" at the end as accusative form is relatively old and is not often to hear from russians.
What was said hier - the form "видАл" - is absolutely grammatically incorrect, you may not say so.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-05 11:56 am (UTC)PS. «Картин» — plural genetive form. The sentence in the OP is OK.
Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 12:10 pm (UTC)слэнг...
Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 01:11 pm (UTC)learning russian
Date: 2009-02-05 06:57 pm (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-05 07:12 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-02-05 07:23 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-02-05 07:50 pm (UTC)Moreover, just to address what vimper said, the Genitive form of nouns IS pretty common with negation (in fact it's even obligatory with ''нет''), and it's not true that such forms are ''not often to hear from russians''. They are all over the place. That's why I tend to agree with archaicos who suggested the Accusative/Genitive alternation should be at least briefly explained/introduced early on, because otherwise, almost any sentence involving negation and a transitive verb might confuse learners (especially if they try getting exposed to Russian outside the classroom).
no subject
Date: 2009-02-05 07:53 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-02-05 08:12 pm (UTC)I am not a teacher either, so I am not confining anybody to anything. I am afraid I haven't been clear enough as to the purpose of my posting. I merely need to understand exactly how and at what point this phenomenon is normally introduced to learners. This is for a research paper on second language learning. I do know enough about the subtleties of this phenomenon, from the linguistics perspective.
no subject
Date: 2009-02-05 08:13 pm (UTC)Я не помню его лицо. Я не нашла никакого словаря.
Я не помню его лица. I haven’t found any dictionary.
I don’t remember his face.
Я не купила ни сыра, ни ветчины.
Я не купила ни сыр, ни ветчину.
I’ve bought neither cheese, nor ham.
With animate nouns and proper names the Acc. case is preferable.
Я не знаю Анну. Ты не знаешь его жену?
I don’t know Ann. Don’t you know his wife?
Марк не любит Лондон.
Mark doesn’t like London.
After the following verbs the direct object takes the Gen. case:
хотеть (to want)
просить – попросить (to request)
ждать (to wait) + noun with abstract meaning
искать (to search)
желать – пожелать (to wish)
добиваться – добиться (to achieve)
Все люди хотят мира. Я прошу вашего совета.
All people want peace. I am asking for your advice.
Я желаю вам счастья.
I wish you happiness.
Compare: Я жду Наташу. (Acc.) Я жду от вас сочувствия. (Gen.)
I am waiting for Natasha. I am expecting compassion from you.
If the direct object is not specified , it can be expressed with the help of the Genetive.
Compare: Я жду письма. Я жду письмо от Наташи.
I am expecting a letter. I am expecting a letter from Natasha.
(a specific letter: I know that it has been sent to me)
BUT: Я жду звонка. (Gen.)
I am expecting a call.
If the following phrases appear in the negative form, the Gen. case is used:
не иметь значения (not to matter)
не иметь возможности (not to have an opportunity)
не обращать внимания (not to pay attention)
не играть роли (not to matter)
не придавать значения (not to pay attention)
Compare: Обратите внимание на его замечание.
Pay attention to his remark.
Не обращайте внимания на его замечания.
Don’t pay attention to his remarks.
The Partitive Genitive
The Partitive Genitive is used to denote an unspecified amount.
Принесите мне воды.
Bring me some water.
Compare: Что ты хочешь: сок или кока-колу? (Acc.) Ты хочешь сока? (Gen.)
What do you want: a juice or a Coke? Do you want some juice?
The Partitive Genitive is used after perfective verbs and the verb хотеть.
Don’t say: Пейте шампанского. Say: Пейте шампанское.
Drink champagne.
But: Выпейте шампанского.
Drink some champagne.
The Partitive Genitive preserves its archaic form in the following words:
чаю (tea), сахару (sugar), мёду (honey), квасу (kvas), коньяку (cognac) , перцу (pepper), рису (rice), винограду (grapes) , винегрету (vinaigrette salad) , etc.
Хочешь чаю? Хочешь чая? Хочешь чай?
Do you want some tea? Do you want tea?
no subject
Date: 2009-02-05 08:30 pm (UTC)http://community.livejournal.com/learn_russian/822793.html
This might be useful for learners and other people participating in this thread, and it contains some useful info for my purposes, too.
However, getting back to my OP, I'd be really grateful if you could consider the questions I ask in the first place. I do know enough about the alternation phenomenon itself. I merely need to understand exactly how and at what point this phenomenon is normally introduced to learners. So mere quotes from a textbook -- as long as I am not sure this specific textbook is widely used -- are not going to be of much help (for my purpose). This is for a research paper on second language learning.
Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-06 06:41 am (UTC)Ok, next example - "Во тьме картин я не видал!" )))
Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-06 06:43 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-06 06:44 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-06 06:45 am (UTC)where слэнг? )))
Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-06 06:48 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-06 06:51 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-06 06:53 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-06 06:55 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-02-06 06:59 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-06 07:20 am (UTC)Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-06 10:08 am (UTC)Прочитал из газет, купил сигарет, видел многих грузин, устал от картин
в этой фразе есть ошибка. нельзя сказать прочитал ИЗ газет. Прочитал В газетах. УЗНАЛ ИЗ газет.
но не прочитал из газет.
купил сигарет, видел грузин (кстати, вы уверены, что не грузинОВ? 0_О. пойду посмотрю словарь... даж интересно стало))
on english:
i think that "прочитал из газет" - it is not right, not on rules...
прочитал В газетАХ - this is true =)
o.c. my opinien is not vois of god =))))
Re: from native russian ))
Date: 2009-02-06 10:09 am (UTC)видал я ЧТО - картинЫ.
Падежи разные.