Beginner talk about Vozvrashcheniye

[johngorentz.livejournal.com]

These numbered sentences are for the end of a ten week, one-evening-a-week class in conversational Russian, for people who didn't necessarily know anything of the language when they started.   We're each supposed to give a brief presentation tonight.   They go with a Powerpoint presentation that contains screen shots from the movie Vozvrashcheniye.   Our instructor helped me with some of it -- she prefers that I mostly use words that we used in class -- even if it doesn't make the best Russian -- and not introduce too many others.  This is not too hard a restriction in that I don't know too much anyway, though I have picked up a few things elsewhere that I didn't learn in this class.   I also got some help yesterday from a young man originally from Russia.  He made a lot of what seemed to me to be good suggestions, often prefacing his remarks about my attempts with, "That's not Russian."  

I picked these things to say about the film, not because it provides the best synopsis, but because they're things that allow me to use some of the vocabulary we had in class.   But then, it turns out some of the things can't really be said very well with what we've learned. 

Anyhow, suggestions or comments would be welcome.  I'm especially struggling with #8.   I thought my co-worker suggested something like "их отец не ожидaнно возврaшеницa" to say something like, "their father suddenly returned."   But I must not have been writing things down carefully enough, because I don't find anything like those last two words by googling or otherwise.   (Those are both words we didn't use in our class, but I thought using a form of the  title of the film would be OK.)

1. вечерем, после ужина, я и моя жена любим смотреть русские фильмы по Netflix или на YouTube
2. Мои любимые фильмы: Возвращение (2003)
3. Это первый русский фильмы которыи мы посмотрели
4. Я думаю, что это самый хороший фильмы
5. здесь вы видите два брата, Иван i Андрей
6. они живут с мамой и бабушкой
7. братья никогда не знали их отца.
8. их отец после этого приходит. [I suspect this doesn’t make sense.  See above.]
9. никто ни знает откуда он приехал.
10. Братя ни знают что он здесь делает.
11. отец везёт Ивана и Андрея на рыбалку и кемпинг.
12. отец учит Андрея как заказывать еду и как платить за неё
13. Иван не хочет кушать. Он говорит: “я не хочу есть”. [My coworker says you'd never say "не хочет кушать."  But my instructor had pointed out that кушать is a word that people in class would understand.]
14. Иван играет хлебом
15. Отец приказывает ему есть [кушать] за 30 секунд.
16. Иван не делает его.
17. Отец хочет что вы Иван сказал, «да, папа», но Иван говорит только «да»
18. Эта история плохо закончится

Comments

[sige-vic.livejournal.com]

I think your co-worker said "неожиданно возвращается" :-)
And he is right about the word "кушать". This word is correct when you talk about toddlers but not about adults or teenagers.

[ego-cultivation.livejournal.com]

2. Мой любимый фильм( not фильмЫ because it's singular)
4. Я думаю, что это самый хороший фильм ( the same)
5. здесь вы видите два брата (maybe it's better to say "this film is about" - этот фильм о двух братьях ИванE и АндреE) or Здесь вы видите ДВУХ БРАТЬЕВ ( because of case)
7 братья никогда не знали СВОЕГО отца. ( их -is also ok, but a little bit strange)
8. Неожиданно возвращается or появляется их отец. ( their father has suddenly appeared or returned)
10. БратЬя не знают зачем он вернулся (but your is also good)
11. отец везёт Ивана и Андрея на рыбалку и В кемпинг.
13. Иван не голоден - Ivan is not hungry
14. Иван играет С хлебом
15. Отец приказывает ему СЪЕСТЬ ВСЁ за 30 секунд.
16. Иван не делает ЭТОГО
17. Отец хочет что БЫ Иван сказал (or говорил - if he wants it always not only once) or отвечал (ответил), «да, папа», но Иван говорит только «да»
18. У этой истории грустный финал - (this story has a grievous end)

[barilotti.livejournal.com]

1. ВечерОм, после ужина, я и моя жена любим смотреть русские фильмы по Netflix или на YouTube (can be also мы с женой любим смотреть)
2. МоЙ любимыЙ фильМ - Возвращение (2003)
3. Это первыЙ русский фильМ, который мы посмотрели
4. Я думаю, что это ОЧЕНЬ хороший фильм
5. здесь вы видите двух братьев, их зовут Иван и Андрей
6. они живут с мамой и бабушкой
7. братья никогда не знали СВОЕГО отца.
8. Внезапно их отец появляется. [I suspect this doesn’t make sense. See above.]
9. Никто не знает откуда он приехал.
10. БратЬя не понимают, что он здесь делает.
11. Отец везёт Ивана и Андрея на рыбалку и кемпинг.
12. Отец учит Андрея, как заказывать еду и как платить за неё
13. Иван не хочет кушать. Он говорит: “Я не хочу есть”. [My coworker says you'd never say "не хочет кушать." But my instructor had pointed out that кушать is a word that people in class would understand.]
14. Иван играет С хлебом
15. Отец приказывает ему съесть все за 30 секунд.
16. Иван не выполняет этого.
17. Отец хочет чтобы Иван сказал «да, папа», но Иван говорит только «да»
18. Эта история плохо закончится.

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

1: вечером
3,4: "фильм" (singular not plural).
5: "видите двух братьев" (кого? - Accusative) Why i? "Ивана и Андрея"
7: "своего отца" (although их is technically acceptable)
8: "после этого" after what? either place a reference to events, AFTER which the father arrives or simpy put, "Появляется их отец".
9,10: should be "не" ("ни" equals neither/nor, as in "ни Иван, ни Андрей не знают...)
11: "кемпинг" is a English borrowing. Technically acceptable, but in this context looks alien and unnatural. Simply write, "на рыбалку с ночёвкой"/
12: punctuation: ", как заказывать"
13: replace "кушать" with "есть", which is more neutral.
15: "приказывает ему доесть..." (perfect form - "to finish eating") "...за 30 секунд".
16: "не делает этого" (he doesn't do THIS, not HIM )))
17: "хочет, чтобы Иван сказал "да, папа", но" (also note punctuation)
18: "плохо заканчивается" (lit.: "is having a bad final")

Also, add capitalization in the beginning and periods in the end of all sentences where missing.

p.s. I haven't seen the movie in question, but from what I've heard, is quite depressing. I bet they also make you watch Tarkovsky, which IMHO is nothing but a boring drivel pretending to be a work of genius. Do they show you any comedies or dramas that people actually watch here in Russia? Any modern movies, any action?

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

>My coworker says you'd never say "не хочет кушать." But my instructor had pointed out that кушать is a word that people in class would understand

Your coworker is right. The usage of the verb кушать (if applied to adults) is a sign of low-life, uneducated or dialectal speech (specifically, Southern dialect, approx. what you would call "redneckish";-)).

[oryx_and_crake]

чтобы is one word, not two
and it requires a comma in front of it

[johngorentz.livejournal.com]

Thank you. This wasn't a movie we watched in class -- it was one that I watched on my own and one which made me want to learn a lot more Russian than the little bit I knew at that time. I would argue that it's a great film -- one of the best in any language. I've also watched some Tarkovsky and have liked it a lot, though there are a couple that are questionable in my mind (and one Swedish one that I sent back to Netflix without finishing). Most films I watch more than over and over. I start with the subtitles, but start picking up a lot more of the language on the 2nd or 3rd time through. If the movie is too boring, it goes back after the 1st watching, and that happened with one of Tarkovsky's Russian films. I like Eldar Ryazanov movies, and have watched Ironiya Sudby -- both the new and the old one. I like Nikita Mikhalkov as a director (sometimes) but with a few exceptions find him annoying as an actor. I'm not sure what you call modern, but I've watched Obyknovennoye chudo, and based on that would like to see more Mark Zakharov films. We were recently watching some of the episodes of Brigada -- dunno if I'll watch them all or not. Watched Gruz 200 recently. Master and Margarita is a great production. If I wanted to watch action movies, I suppose I'd watch American movies. But there are very few American movies I can stand to watch. (I try, every now and then.) Ostrov is on its way from Netflix to our house for a 2nd time. Oh, I like that one with Mr. Uef in it. :-) I've watched it over and over.

[johngorentz.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Yeah, I learned the мы с женой form from Pimsleur -- never saw it in writing until you wrote it here -- but I guess I'm supposed to stay with я и моя жена in this class.

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

Well, glad to see you have a choice )

Mark Zakharov - definitely a must see. Grigori Gorin was a script writer for most (if not all) of his movies, try to look him up also.

N.Mikhalkov - your characterisation of him is a bull's eye )))

Try Bekmambetov's "Ночной Дозор"/"Дневной Дозор" (just don't take him too seriously), it's a kind of cheap thrills I love so much, blood and gore and black humor and all )))

And, finally, out of the newest ones, try "День Радио"/"День Выборов". These are best watched while mildly abusing substances of your choice, even if just beer))) Some of the jokes might be a bit hard to understand for a foreigner, but you might as well just give it a try ;)

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

also, for some truly Russian atmosphere and uniquely Russian humor:
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%8B_(%D1%84%D0%B8%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BC)#.D0.A5.D1.83.D0.B4.D0.BE.D0.B6.D0.B5.D1.81.D1.82.D0.B2.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D0.B0.D1.8F_.D1.86.D0.B5.D0.BD.D0.BD.D0.BE.D1.81.D1.82.D1.8C

http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D1%80%D1%8B%D0%B1%D0%B0%D0%BB%D0%BA%D0%B8
http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D1%81%D0%BE%D0%B1%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D0%BE%D1%81%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%BD%D0%B0%D1%86%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%BD%D0%B0%D0%BB%D1%8C%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B9_%D0%BE%D1%85%D0%BE%D1%82%D1%8B_%D0%B2_%D0%B7%D0%B8%D0%BC%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B9_%D0%BF%D0%B5%D1%80%D0%B8%D0%BE%D0%B4

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

You are wrong. "Кушать" is a polite and somewhat archaic form, which is only incorrect to use when speaking about oneself. There is absolutely nothing "uneducated" about it, and your notion that there is something "low-life" about it simply amazes me.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

So, you can seriously ask somebody "кушаете ли вы сегодня вместе со мной, Геннадий?" :)

@#$, крокодил!!!

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

No. Neither will I ask, "вы сегодня едите со мной, Брунгильда?"
I will use "обедать" or "ужинать" instead.

However, I find "кушайте, пожалуйста" quite natural and neutral - unlike "ешьте, пожалуйста", which sounds almost too insistent, like an order.

Shall we let Mr. Ozhegov judge us? ;)
http://ak.ak22.net/dict/?ex=Y&q=%D0%9A%D0%A3%D0%A8%D0%90%D0%A2%D0%AC

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Come on, don't pull us aside, we're asked about a very certain usage which has nothing to do with the only context Ozhegov mentions as possible (and. BTW, it's still the 1930s norm, quite dated today,) namely, "Иван не хочет кушать." I still state that this usage is completely off, and marks uneducated and/or dialectal speech. "Галёна, не поди туда, там папа кушает, поди полы намой" ("Г" must be very fricative.)

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

To make things clear, under no circumstances will I ever say "кушайте, пожалуйста" to anybody, if I'm not mocking the addressee. There's at least half a dozen ways to say it in other words, while "кушайте, пожалуйста" sounds like I'm a 19th century половой waiting on the person I address to (white towel over the left arm, hair neatly greased and combed.)

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

see my comment above. I do think that "есть" in this context is more appropriate.
I also maintain that "кушать" is a regular polite form, inappropriate only when misplaced, and uneducated or dialectal usage occurs when used out of bounds of norm.

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Leave alone the theory. Straight to business. Is "Иван не хочет кушать" a "regular polite form", fully appropriate in neutral speech?

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

"Ваня не хочет кушать" is fully appropriate, for example, if
* Ваня in question is a child (most likely of a preschool age) referred to by a parent, a nanny, a kindergarten teacher.
* Ваня is an adult referred to (emotionally) by his mother or grandmother.

And would you please not tell me to leave the theory alone or get to business; I don't owe you no money.

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

"Oh, those Russians." The question is very, very specific. There is no ifs. The usage has nothing to do with imaginary nannies and kindergratens. We speak "Возвращение" here, that strange Zvyagintsev's movie. Ivan is a teenager. The speaker is a student who retells the movie as part of a school project. Is "Иван не хочет кушать" legitimate here?

You ain't owe me no money mister, awright.

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[mr-uef.livejournal.com]

There ARE ifs, and they matter.
But I have already given my very, very specific answers above.

I repeatedly (http://community.livejournal.com/learn_russian/866567.html?thread=13389831#t13389831 and http://community.livejournal.com/learn_russian/866567.html?thread=13386759#t13386759) state that this specific context IS NOT appropriate for the usage of word "кушать".

Neither have I claimed that it is acceptable under ANY circumstances.

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Is not. Good. Thank you. That's all I was speaking about.

about Russian/Soviet cinema

[alek-morse.livejournal.com]

By the way, I have found this interesting review (in English) about Russian/Soviet cinema written by an Stephen Hutchings:

http://www.palgrave.com/PDFs/0230517366.Pdf.

The name of the review is 'Russia and Its Other(s)'

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[scifigal.livejournal.com]

wow--my host family always told me кушай. I don't think anyone has ever told me to eat using the есть form. In fact, I don't even know what the imperative form of есть is! ;)

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

How far South it was? ;-))
Maybe they've been treating you as a toddler? :))

Imperative from есть is ешь/ешьте.

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[johngorentz.livejournal.com]

Last night I mentioned this little discussion to our instructor, a young woman from Ukraine. She was somewhat surprised at the reaction to хочет кушать, saying she wasn't aware of anything wrong with it. But she said she has had things happen like this before, like once when she met a person (persons?) from Petersburg who were claiming that everything she said was wrong. Do you count Ukraine as south?

Re: @#$, крокодил!!!

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Gosh, Ukraine is the South of the South :) Ukrainian Russian is a very specific sort of Russian, and a bearer of "normative" Russian (which is based upon Moscow dialect, not St.Petersburg) can clearly distingush a Russian speaker from Ukraine. One of my friends is married to a Russian woman from the eastern part of Ukraine (the Russian-speaking part); she's living in Moscow for 25 years now, but you can still hear from where she is, even if her Гs aren't that soft anymore.