Всесторонне обсудив тему,...

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Dear Community,

Could you please provide your input regarding the following?

Всесторонне обсудив тему, ... .
1. работа была начата
2. было произведено начало работ
3. можно начинать работу
4. работа началась

It seems that 4. is the correct response. However, I'm not certain why each of the other three is incorrect.

Could you explain what it is about the other three that makes them each incorrect?

Thank you for your inut.

Regards,

ФБ

UDATE: One thanks very much for the great input. One has now understood that one must often think as one in Russian. BTW. German is similar, but Russian, one thinks, goes a step farther, as evidenced, not least, by forms such as the ubiquitous "можно", "нужно" - "one may", "one needs".

Comments

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Can you explain the reasoning by which one arrives at this conclusion?

[constpd.livejournal.com]

No.3 is correct
1 and 4 would both mean that work discussed the problem though work cannot discuss anything

[letnja-kisha.livejournal.com]

The subject in both sentences has to be the same, thus only 3 fits (in both sentences then the subject is unknown, but is presumed to be people)

If you pick 4, then the work is doing the discussing also. Same goes for 1. In 2, it's a passive sentence, so again the subject doesn't fit.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Thank you. That gives me something to cling to (pun intended).

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

That makes sense. Thanks.

[colonelrabin.livejournal.com]

All comments above are correct, only the answer 3 allows to keep the personality/impersonality of the subjects in the both parts of the sentence.

Actually, Chekhov eliminated any basis for such discussions more than 100 years ago with a phrase of a character complaining: "Подъезжая к городу и глядя на природу в окно, у меня слетела шляпа" The character means that his hat fall away (was blown away with the wind) while he was looking through the window, bur the literal meaning of the phrase is that the hat itself was looking through the window...

[yurka-spb.livejournal.com]

In 1 and 4 the subject is работа, so it has discussed the subject, which is nonsense.
No. 2 is impersonal so it is not clear who has discussed the subject.
No. 3 is also impersonal but можно here means мы можем (or вы можете, они могут etc. depending on context) so we (you, they) have discussed the subject and may start working. It is a bit unclear, since обсудив refers to the omitted subject in the sentence.

Btw, all three erroneous variants are rather common errors even for native speakers.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

So, basically, 3. means, "After having discussed the topic we are now prepared to work."

Thet others, 1,2 and 4, do not contain the implication of the subject "we" and are therefore not suitable here.

Is that correct?

[letnja-kisha.livejournal.com]

I don't think it's "we" per se (could be the impersonal "you" as in "After having discussed .., you can start work"), but otherwise you're correct (the other ones don't have a "personal" subject at all).

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

So, in English, we'd say something like "Heading towards the city and looking out at the countryside through the window, my hat was blown away with the wind." - What we need here is to name a subject, i.e. "As I was heading...".

The implication is, therefore, that "Всесторонне обсудив тему,..." must be read as "Now that *we* have discussed...". Because, like the hat in Chekov's sentence above that cannot go to town of its own volition, the *work* cannot conduct a discussion about anything.

That's great. Thank you for the succinct explanation.

[warpod.livejournal.com]

5. участники разлили водку по стаканам.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Well, I think by impersonal "you" you mean to say "one". (The informal impersonal "you" doesn't work here at all, in my opinion). Your Russian impersonal could work in German with "man", but in English it would look very odd here and might not make any sense at all. So, in order for it to make sense in English, you've got to convert it to a personal "we", at least in terms of understanding: Otherwise, I don't see how one can grasp what you're trying to communicate.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

All right. That's what I'll do now to inspire my Russian learning exercise.

[letnja-kisha.livejournal.com]

Well, in English you can use "you" as "one", only it's more informal. The problem with "one" is that it's singular and that's why it doesn't fit. If you could say "ones", then it'd work. And "you" doesn't specify if it's singular or plural, so it could work:
"After discussing the topic, you can start the work" (meaning not you specifically, but in general)

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

After discussing the topic, you can start the work" (meaning not you specifically, but in general) - I don't think this means what you intend to imply. The *you* may be addressed to a group, but it's not an anonymous group in the sense of the impersonal.

"After having discussed the topic one can start the work." - English does not use impersonal in this manner.

If at all one can say...

"After having discussed the topic, the work may be commenced." - That, I think, is the right way to do it. - But then that's a passive.

In any case, one should not attempt to assume Russian thinking in English. That is as wrong as it is in the other direction, in my opinion.

[colonelrabin.livejournal.com]

You're welcome. And, as mentioned in a comment below, yes - these are really common mistakes at native speakers, especially (but not only) for schoolchildren.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Thanks. Now one knows more.