A pronunciation question

[miconazole.livejournal.com]

I have been wondering about this for a while (I never speak Russian in real life so I didn't bother finding out): when you write и instead of ы in word endings, is the и still pronounced as ы? None of my sources have said anything about this, maybe because it is a stupid question ;)

Edit: To clarify, I mean for example when a word ends in к, г, щ etc. and you want to make it plural.

Comments

[ex-tritopor.livejournal.com]

>is the и still pronounced as ы

"И" pronounced as "ы" in Ukrainian only, but in Russian "Ы" is always "Ы".

[oryx_and_crake]

Could you please clarify or give some examples - what exactly do you mean by "writing и instead of ы in word endings"?

[jimmyhere.livejournal.com]

no, it's not.

[jadore-vin.livejournal.com]

I think [Bad username or site: @ livejournal.com] is referring to what my prof calls the 7 Letter Spelling Rule: Never write Ы after к, г, х, ж, ч, ш, or щ.

It looks like wikipedia notes, ". . .after ж and ш, и is pronounced as if it were written ы." This has never been brought to my attention before. Is it accurate? Seems like a really subtle phonetic point.

[oryx_and_crake]

Oh, I see now. No, it's и.

[oryx_and_crake]

". . .after ж and ш, и is pronounced as if it were written ы."

Oh, I get it now. Yes, after ж and ш only (not any other letter) и is pronounced like ы. E.g. малыши is pronounced малышы. But I don't think it is correct to say that in this case и is written "instead of" ы. It is no less legitimate than ы in the word endings.

[miconazole.livejournal.com]

Well I said "instead of" since without the rule you would expect to write ы, not because I don't think it's legitimate.

So only after ж and щ, eh? Thanks :)

[miconazole.livejournal.com]

*ш. I wrote the Russian letters on my keyboard with marker and they've rubbed off :D

[oryx_and_crake]

since without the rule you would expect to write ы
---
I don't know why you would expect that, unless someone told you that plural always ends with ы, which would be wrong.

[miconazole.livejournal.com]

Since they are hard consonants, I guess.

I admit my spelling is not that great, and I guess I see your point that it's just part of how the spelling works...

(I realise not all plurals end in ы)

[brocster.livejournal.com]

It's definitely not a "stupid question". In fact, it's a strange quirk of Russian (one of its three "spelling rules") that just doesn't make all that much sense.

First, you need to remember the following two groups of consonants:

- ш, ж and ц are always "hard"
- ч and щ are always "soft"

That means that, although you're forced (by the quirky spelling rule) to write и instead of ы after ш, ж, ч and щ (with ц, the ending is the regular [expected] vowel ы, but there are some situations -- like foreign words, such as цирк -- where the combination of ци occurs), the actual pronunciation will depend on the inherent quality of the consonant.

For the inherently "hard" consonants -- ш and ж [and ц] -- you will always pronounce ы (e.g., the final vowel in столы or отцы and ножи or наши will sound the same).

After the inherently "soft" consonants -- ч and щ -- you will pronounce what you write (e.g., ключи оr плащи will both have the regular и vowel sound at the end, just as they're spelled).


With the velars -- к, г, х -- you will pronounce the vowel и, which will result in the softening (or palatalization) of the velar (so книга has a "hard" г, while книги has a "soft" г).

One other thing to keep in mind -- these phonetic rules apply not just to endings (as in the examples above), but to ANY combination of ж, ш, ч, щ, ц and и or ы. So the vowel in the word жить or шить sounds just like the one in мыть or быть, or the next-to-last vowel in большие sounds just like the next-to-last vowel in молодые, etc. It's all a question of whether the preceding consonant is "hard" or "soft" (and, unfortunately, with the spelling rules, there really isn't any logic -- you just have to memorize which consonants [of the ж, ш, ч, щ, ц group] are "hard" and which are "soft").


Well, I hope that made some sense. If not, just ask....

- Andrew : )

[oryx_and_crake]

yes - some plurals can even end in -а or -я, so one should be really careful with generalizations.

[eez.livejournal.com]

There are two good mnemonic rules that are learned in the first grade in Russian schools:
жи-ши пиши через и (жи-ши write with и)
ча-ща пиши через а (ча-ща write with а)

There are NO exceptions from these rules - no matter where in a word these letters appear (I mean ж, ш, ч, щ).

Regarding ц - as far as I remember - there are 5 words where you have to write ы, but I do not remember all of them right now...
цыган (+цыганёнок), цыпленок are a couple of examples.

In all other cases when you hear "цы" it is usually spelled "ци".
As for the cases when "ц" appear at the end of the word (like "отцы") - I do not remember the rule...

Except these, и is never pronounced as ы.

[towarysc.livejournal.com]

И is also pronnounced as ы after hard (not palatalized) consonants in the beginning of the words. E.g. в Ирландии, под ивой, с интересом etc.

[soledad74.livejournal.com]

There's a mnemonic sentence about these words: Цыган на цыпочках сказал цыпленку "Цыц!". The final "Цыц" corresponds to the verb цыкать.