Numbers

[27thletter.livejournal.com]

Most of the multiples of ten seem to follow a nice pattern: пятьдесят, шестьдесят, семьдесят, etc. But why is 40 сорок? Does anyone know its etymology? Why doesn't it contain some form of четыре?

Comments

[archaicos.livejournal.com]

I don't know if this is connected with the fact that 40 used to mean a lot, not just 40. And сорок сорок_о_в (40 times 40) used to mean such a big amount that couldn't be counted at all.
On the other hand, if you consider numbers (cardinal and ordinal) in English or better Spanish, you'll see there're also irregularities. And I've heard other languages use different from decimal base when making up numbers, like French and German. Some of them uses multiple of 20 to say 40, 60, etc. So, either way, be prepared for the irregularities.

[marixxa.livejournal.com]

i think my teacher told us it has something to do with an amount that something came in/comes in frequently, like a barrel of something... i wish i remembered more specifically!

[tisoi.livejournal.com]

Some answers:

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0510c&L=seelangs&D=1&F=&S=&P=1998

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0510c&L=seelangs&D=1&F=&S=&P=2103

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0510c&L=seelangs&D=1&F=&S=&P=2305

http://listserv.linguistlist.org/cgi-bin/wa?A2=ind0510c&L=seelangs&D=1&F=&S=&P=2410

[27thletter.livejournal.com]

Very interesting; thanks!

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

I find it curious that the number 40 occurs in the bible, and elsewhere, to indicate a full cycle of something.

1. Noah's flood lasted for 40 days.

2. The Israelites wandered the desert for 40 years (presumably a generation).

3. Christ went into the desert for 40 days.

4. Christian Lent lasts for 40 days. (Western Christianity)

So, there's certainly something going on there with the number forty. My suspicion is that for Russians 40 was a unit of measure somewhat like 12, i.e. a "dozen", or 20, i.e. a "score" used to be units of measure in English. We used to count in dozens and scores (and other now obsolete units such as, fathoms, 6 feet; and leagues, 3 miles). Perhaps there was a time when Russians counted in units of "сорок". And, perhaps, unlike in English, they decided to keep their "сорок" as the only word for forty. Parts of the English speaking world still have a difficult time getting rid of pounds, inches, feet and miles,and simply using just the decimal system. In English, still have other words for both 12 and 20 each, i.e. dozen and score. So, I'm not surprised that the Russians, too, have chosen to hold on to some remnant of an earlier time before we all adopted the decimal system.

[nymphatacita.livejournal.com]

In biblical terms, "40" means "a lot," That's why things happened for "40 days and 40 nights," so your explanation makes sense to me.

[k48.livejournal.com]

Сорок is a type of sack in which they used to sell furs of соболи. They were sold 40 furs a sack.

[nugae.livejournal.com]

yea, last term i had "Historical Grammar of Russian" in University, and our lecturer said there is such hypothesis, but still nobody knows it for sure

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

>they decided to keep their "сорок" as the only word for forty

Nobody "decided" that: it just happened :)

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

I meant "decided" at an abstract level. As Hegel would tell you, History doesn't "just happen!" It has a philosophy, a purpose, a structure, an outcome.

Besides, as regulated as many things are in Russia, I would not be surprised to find out that at some point, just like you've had language reforms determined by the state, someone "decided" in the concrete sense that "сорок" was going to remain forty.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

I think that you overestimate many things. Russian language norms were, in fact, regulated by official decisions during the Soviet period, but those decisions were not, after the Lenin's 1918 decree on abandoning the pre-revolutionary orthography, the government's, but rather the Russian Academy of Sciences and Letters's. And, believe me, the word 40 is some 400 (or more) years older than the Lenin's decree. No, it evolved as a result of evolution rather than revolution. BTW many other Slavic languages lack this word - for example, in Bulgarian 40 is четиридесет, in Czech 40 is čtyřicet; but Russian, Ukrainian and Belarussian have сорок (сорак in Belarussian case,) which means that this word derives from the common ancestor of those three languages, the Ancient Russian, well before 14th-15th centuries.

[faustin.livejournal.com]

Dude, he's genuflecting to Hegel. He's rudderless, an ideological equivalent of Barbie with AIDS. There's no point in referring to obvious facts or reasoning from those facts. Just feel some pity for him and try to keep your distance.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Why keep distance? Those who (like myself) grew up being involuntarily taught Marxism, are quite immune of Hegel (since Hegel is one of the "theree sources and three parts" (Lenin) of Marxism,) and for, I believe, many others this excursion into the history of Slavic languages is at least not without interest.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

That was my original point - "decided on an abstract level", i.e. by evolution.

And my original argument was that "сорок" was a "remnant" of premodern times. You underline that point in your excursion into Ancient Russian.

At the same time, revolutions and reforms in Russia did not begin with Lenin or even Peter the Great. Russia has been having revolutions and reforms for many centuries.

Evidently, some things have managed to escape the axe (of evolution and revolution) down to this day. As I said at the outset, "сорок" appears to be one of those.

[faustin.livejournal.com]

I also grew up with Hegelian dialectic lurking behind the muddled corners.

But the point is, this character takes Hegel seriously... he thinks that Hegel shines light on the truth!

...and I'm mostly being playful. It's true I have as much respect for a Hegelian as I have for most Mormon missionaries or Jehovah's Witnesses, etc, but Hegelians aren't exactly a common Christian religious cult. It's not often you get to put a nasty gibe to a Hegelian.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Oh, come on. Your original point is "perhaps, unlike in English, they [Russians] decided to keep their "сорок" as the only word for forty". There was nothing about abstract level, herr Hegel, revolutions in Russia, and evolution as a remnant of Peter the Great. There was just an awfully silly sentence.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

What's up with the ad hominem faustin?

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Oh, welcome to Russian Communists' Web forums, there is quite a few. There, you'll get plenty of opportunities.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

So are go going to continue quoting me out of context, putting words in my mouth, and resorting to ad hominens to make a point? Do you need that? You asked me to clarify a statement and I've done so. Either you can accept my interpretation of my statement at face value or not - it's up to you.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Look, I am not an American and thus I am not correct politically, being quite enough fed with the Soviet political correctness (and sick of it!) :) So, when I see a silly statement, I just say it is silly. I do not exactly care about Hegel, or somebody having suspicions, or thinking that something was going on with the number of 40; I know that the word сорок in Russian is ancient, derives from Ancient Russian, is common for all three Slavic languages that derived from Ancient Russian, and that one of its meaning was exactly a counting unit (for furs,) the other being simply "a lot" (like in English "scores of something"). Since it is known, there is no need in speculations and suspicions. We just agree with the facts that exist, quite independently of our consciousness, OK? :)

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

"I know that the word сорок in Russian is ancient, derives from Ancient Russian" - Like I said that was my original point. And we can heartily agree that this is a fact.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

"We just agree with the facts that exist, quite independently of our consciousness."

That is very decidedly an argument of an "Hegelian-of-the-Left" ideologue, i.e. Matter determines Consciousness, (Sein bestimmt Bewusstsein, fundamental Marxist position).

On the other hand, a "Hegelian-of-the-Right", i.e. Consciousness determines Matter (Bewusstsein bestimmt Sein, Fundamental Nietzschean position) would insist that our consciousness must determine the facts.

"There are no facts, only interpretations."

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Come on, again. Do not bite my bait like a really hungry perch :) Believe me, I can speak the Marxist volapuke so well that you will never tell me from a Hegelian. I had a "5" in Dialectical Materialism, and a "5" in Historical Materialism, and even a "5" in Political Economy of Capitalism, back in 1985 at the Moscow State, so I could pass very well for a Marxist with its built-in Hegelian dialectics. Shall I explain where exactly I think is the proper place for this kind of philosophy, Hegel included? :-))

[faustin.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm being a jerk and probably owe you an apology. It's admirable that you didn't treat me like a jerk in kneejerk reaction.

As I said, I'm mostly being playful; but it's also true that I hate Hegelianism.

Hopefully you don't take it personally. As a general principle, if someone walks into a forum and hurls insults, unprovoked, at someone else, what he demonstrates is only his own lack of stature, and not that of the person he's insulting.

[vargtimmen.livejournal.com]

This is seriously the weirdest argument I've ever read.

[zhirafov-nyet.livejournal.com]

I agree.

[zhirafov-nyet.livejournal.com]

Just accept it without question. That's the best thing to do with languages like Russian.

[zhirafov-nyet.livejournal.com]

Your icon makes me laugh; I stole it, if you don't mind...

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

So, I'm supposed to be impressed? Can you tell me the market value of 10 kilos of philosophy?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Blaming Hegel for Communism (removal of God from History and taking His place) is like blaming Nietzsche for Nazism (interpreting the Uebermensch in terms of racial theories).

In both cases the argument is like cursing fire for the deeds of an arsonist.

Actually, I find it praiseworthy that you decided to desist from unnecessary provocations.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

About a penny, I suppose :)