Special Rules in Russian

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Some prefer to learn, first the rules and then the exceptions.

Alternatively, one can focus on the exceptions as a means of better understanding the rules. Personally, I find that learning exceptions gives me better insight into the logic of rules.

As such, one could say, "If you know the exceptions, then you know when and how to apply the rules".

Naturally, everyONE does what works for THEM. (An English language exception, for those into prescriptive grammar.)

For example, "врач пришлА, онА прекраснЫЙ врач" - "The doctor arrived, she's an excellent doctor."

This acknowledges the successful entry of women into previously all male professions (descriptive grammar), while attempting to maintain the integrity of the rule concerning gender agreement of adjectives and nouns (prescriptive grammar).

In English an equivalent could be, "She's the chairman of the company". (As opposed to "chairwoman", "chairperson" or just "chair".)

On the other hand, there is a group of words that are "androgynous". These include, for example:

1. пьяницА - drunkard (Он безотраднЫЙ пьяницА - He's a wretched drunkard; Она безотраднАЯ пьяницА - She's a wretched drunkard)

2. сиротА - orphan (Он беднЫЙ сиротА - He's a poor orphan; Она беднАЯ сиротА - She's a poor orphan)

3. умницА! - smart guy! / smart girl!

And others....

Comments

[17abel.livejournal.com]

1 Он - алкоголик
Она - алкоголичкА (I don't meane T-shirt!!! =))

2 smart girl - Умница
smart guy - Молодец (This word we use more aften)

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

Она алкоголик. Так же как и она директор и врач (а не директриса и врачиха). Умница - общий род, так же, как и молодец. Он умница, она умница. Он молодец, она молодец.

To freiburg234: It is not right to say "врач пришла", but many people does.

[17abel.livejournal.com]

то есть врач пришел... вне зависимости от того врач это или "врачиха"?

I need to learn Russian too...

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

Да, в любом случае "врач пришел". Но современные правила уже разрешают женский род, так же, как с кофе, пошли на поводу у толпы.
Да простят меня за русский язык, я не могу это по-английски сказать, как выяснилось :(

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Thanks for the comment. I think you help me make my point: It is not right to say "врач пришла (prescriptive grammar)", but many people does (descriptive grammar).

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

What is descriptive grammar?
Everybody sais врач пришла now, also they say вкусное кофе (neuter gender) instead of вкусный кофе (masculine gender). These forms are indexed in dictionaries now, so at present it's not a mistate to say врач пришла or вкусное кофе. But it's better for educated person not to use these forms.
Hope you have understood me :) My English is not good enough for such themes.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Your English is much better than my Russian, in any case.

дескриптивная грамматика - descriptive grammar: Refers to the tendency of grammar rules to be deducted based on common usage.

нормативная грамматика - prescriptive grammar: Refers to the tendency of grammar rule to be deducted based on theoretical considerations.

For example, common usage in English is to say "It's me". - "Это я". Therefore, according to descriptive grammar, this is correct usage.

However, according to the theoretical rules of prescriptive grammar, it's wrong to say "It's me", as this literally means "Это меня". Instead, one should say "It is I".

Of course, virtually no one says "It is I". And so, the previously wrong usage - by prescriptive grammar standards - has become the new standard.

There are many more such examples in English and, I suspect, In Russian, too.

In the case of "кофе", I think you can get by with either "вкусный" or "вкусное". Except, some will still view the latter as prescriptively "wrong". I really don't care, as long as it really is "tasty".

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

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<<one should say "It is I">> No, I understand the rule. Me is an accented pronoun, and many languages have different forms for an accented pronoun and non-accented pronoun. I and me. for example. Also "-Do you want to dance? -ME?". In French these pronouns are "je" and "moi" ("-Voulez-vous danser?" -MOI?) etc. It's a prescriptive grammar, I think :)

[atranotte.livejournal.com]

That's not correct. Умница and молодец can be used for male and female as well, both of them. Check it in your dictionary. Алкоголик can be used for female. Алкоголичка is mostly used in spoken Russian.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Precisely, the real life (descriptive grammar) function of "me" as an "accented pronoun", overrides the prescriptive grammar rule concerning subject/object agreement. The point is that prescriptive grammar often plays catch-up in acknowledging rules that in real life have long been established by common (sense) usage.

German, for example, has a similar dilemma with "das Maedchen" - "the girl".

Often, people will refer to "das Maedchen" as "sie" - "she" (because this is what they see), even though the rules of prescriptive grammar require "es" - "it", because "Maedchen" is grammatical neuter gender and "sie" is grammatical feminine gender.

In Russian, it seems that "врач пришла" is another example of descriptive grammar being ahead of prescriptive grammar.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Hello People,

Can you think of and name other controversial issues in Russian grammar?

"На Украине" versus "В Украине" seems to be a topical one.

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

But Germans say "meine Mädchen" instead of "mein Mädchen", I think. Am I right? Even if they see a girl :)

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

At present it's sill right to use the preposition "на", but the Ukrainians think that "в" is better...
There are many controversial issues in accenting (одноврЕменно-одновремЕнно, мышлЕние-мЫшление и т.д.)

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

I suppose accenting can also be related to "regionalism". In English, for example, it's common to expect people from different regions to have different accents. There can even be competing intra-regional standards.

Although, I have noticed that Russian is much more standardised in this regard. It amazes me that someone living deep in Central Asia or in the Russian Far East will generally speak with the same standardised accent as someone from Moscow or St. Petersburg.

So, placing the right "ударение" - "stress" in Russian is important. Otherwise, "Вас не поймут"." - "You won't be understood."

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

My English is terrible!))) I meant accent as ""ударение" - "stress"", of course. Ruissan have words with 2 possible stresses (одновременно, мышление and many others)
Yes, Russian is very standardized. We have regionalismes, but it's not right to use it. A person must follow the rules of Russian.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Could you tell us why the controversy over "На Украине" versus "В Украине"? After all, the difference is *only* a preposition.

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

In Russian prep. "в" is used with countries; prep. "на" is used only when the country is an island. В Испании, в США, В Австралии. but: На Крите, на Кипре etc. Ukraine is an exception to this rule because the word "украина" comes from "окраина" - remote area. This area was remote from the center of Russia, so Russians used to say "НА окраине". It becomed the name of the country, but the preposition didn't changed. And now the Ukrainans think that this preposition is abusive for the country, because it's not a "окраина" nowadays. So, they sais that "в" is the right variant and we that "на" is, because it's a prescriptive grammar

Uff.. Can you understand my explanation?

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

"became", of course, not "becomed". Sorry

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

"A person must follow the rules of Russian." - In other words, uniformity is demanded? "Иными словами, должно быть единообразие?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

I think you're saying the rule is that for countries one uses the preposition "в". However, for historical reasons Ukraine is an exception to the rule. So, in Russian, exceptions have historical precedent?

[kegarawashii.livejournal.com]

regional varieties of Russian surely are deviations from the standard language prescribed to and existing almost exclusively in scientific and legal literature. yet they are not in any way examples of incorrect language use and are absolutely admissible in their regions - otherwise the same problem of вас не поймут.
even news presenters of the channel one (who are required to have perfect speech style) use moscow regionalisms which are not literary norm forms. yet they are allowed to do so as long as these regionalisms are not examples of colloquial speech.
the thing is russian dialects almost never affect grammar which makes them quite underdtandable. plus one who uses a dialectism almost always knows the standard word and can easily alternate using them.

as for stresses - most of words actually do have a set stress fixed by dictionaries. those with two stresses are in their transitional phase and are sure to lose one of stresses one day.
in addition, there are words which are stressed incorrectly universally, by absolute majority of population. and the problem of вас не поймут will arise if one uses the word correclty. or at least it would grate on one's ears.)

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

Yes. There is "русский литературный язык", where there is strict norm (строгая норма), which every person must follow. But we often use wrong forms just for fun

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

news presenters of the channel one are required to have perfect speech style, but they don't have it...
What is moscow regionalisms? Литературный язык is based on the moscow dialect.
"most of words actually do have a set stress fixed by dictionaries." Yes, but some words NOW have two stresses.

Yes. that's it. But I think it's better to say the correct variant if you know it, even if you can be misundersrood :)

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

Not always. It depends on the history of the language and on the history of the country sometimes.

[kegarawashii.livejournal.com]

literary language is based on the dialect Moscow had back in 18th century. the dialect has changed since then (though insignificantly, of course), whereas the norm stays largely the same.
additionally, regional speech today differs mainly by accent (говор), not dialects which unfortunately die out.
when dialects are opposed to the standard language as incorrect use of language, it looks like a linguistic dictatorship, really)

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

"when dialects are opposed to the standard language as incorrect use of language, it looks like a linguistic dictatorship, really)"
Так сложилось исторически, что могу сказать :-)))
"the dialect has changed since then (though insignificantly, of course), whereas the norm stays largely the same"
You are noy right.The norm changed many times since the 18 century. Moscow is the capital, so the language is based on the accent of this area. Вы можете привести примеры диалектизмов московских, которые не являются нормой? Я не могу вспомнить...

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Wow! So, uniformity of the Russian language plays an important role in maintaining cultural stability across the Russian Federation?

Удивительно! Итак, единообразие русского языка играет важную роль в поддержании культурной стабильности на территории Российской Федерации?

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

"Linguistic dictatorship" indeed. Whenever I hear people categorically stating "that's not right", as if a single standard could be arbitrarliy imposed on language users, then I tend to think of "linguistic dictatorship".

On the other hand, all standards are in a sense a (necessary) dictatorship. So I guess the point is that there needs to be some kind of healthy balance between the standard and the acceptable deviations.

In English, for example, there seem to be several standards that peacefully co-exist. Russian, on the other hand, appears to insist on a single valid standard.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Isn't "not always" precisely the meaning of the term "exception"?

I guess you're stating that "exceptions" are unique and in themselves do not necessarily establish precedents for analogous decisions?

Which is why Ukrainians' arguments for changing the historical "на Украине" to "в Украине" does not lead to automatic acceptance.

Consequently, I guess we'll have two standards, one officially recognised in Russia and the other officially recognised in Ukraine.

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

I think one would normally say "mein Maedchen". I think the difficulty arises when "Maedchen" is third person and then one wants to use a pronoun to refer to "it" using 'es' as required by prescriptive grammar.

Nowadays, if you refer to "ein Maedchen" as "es" (a thing), you might get some strange looks from people wondering whether you're some kind of grammar freak out of touch with reality.

To me, it seems kind of like the example with "врач пришлА" in contrast to "онА прекраснЫЙ врач".

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

By the way. English used to have a similar situation. Years ago, one normally referred to "the Ukraine" as a kind of parallel to the Russian "на Украине". But in the past few years this has become obsolete and virtually all language users now simply refer to "Ukraine".

[kegarawashii.livejournal.com]

you should probably read some prominent russian scholars' works on dialectology before mentioning unidentified historical matters.
i see, you don't see the difference between "based on a dialect" and "is equal to the dialect".
you can't probably think up of an example because you live in moscow region. if your point to argue at all is to know the matter, i'd recommend same scholars' works and these articles on dialectology (in russian) (http://www.lingvo.ru/goroda/articles.asp).

[wordchick.livejournal.com]

Sorry to butt in, but it seems to me that most Americans still say "the Ukraine." Have English speakers in other countries dropped "the"?

[bumpycat.livejournal.com]

I've seen both in UK publications, but certainly most (including the BBC) is using "Ukraine" instead of "the Ukraine".

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

:)
Thank you, but I read atticles on dialectology.
I'm waiting for the examples of non-literary words, which belong to the moscow dialect.

[good-chaotic.livejournal.com]

"На Украине" is wrong. Not for Ukrainians only but for Russians too.

[jewelin.livejournal.com]

:-))))))))

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Both seem to enjoy some degree of use. I think it's like the case of "na Ukraine" versus "v Ukraine". That is, it takes time for the new standard to completely replace the old standard. So, for a while at least, both will exist in parallel.

Nonetheless, I think one can safely say "Ukraine" has made significant inroads as the new standard. One simply needs to pay attention to those users (noticably statesmen) who prefer "Ukraine" to "the Ukraine".

More Special Rules - Spot the Rule!

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Could our Russian language pundits comment on the below points:

1. Мать с ребенком пошлa в амбулаторию - Why does the mother's gender 'пошлa' override the child's gender 'ребенoк'?

Старший брат с сестренкой уехал в деревню - Why does the brother's gender 'уехал' override the sister's gender?

Мать с дочерью долго не могли успокоиться и вспоминали случившееся
-Why plural form of verb (могли) here?

Муж с женой пошли в театр. - Why plural form 'пошли'? This appears to be in contrast to singular form below.

Жена с мужем пошла в театр - Why does wife's gender 'пошла' override husband's gender?

Re: More Special Rules - Spot the Rule!

[ytzin.livejournal.com]

Мать с ребенком пошлА - it is wrong. Мать с ребенком пошлИ or Мать пошлА с ребенком.

Re: More Special Rules - Spot the Rule!

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Thank you for your contribution.

If you are right, then please explain your logic in view of the apparent fact that you consider the following forms to be correct:

1. Жена с мужем пошла в театр - why not "пошлИ"?

2. Старший брат с сестренкой уехал в деревню - why not уехалИ?

Hint: See what Д.Э.Розенталь says about the form "Сказуемое при подлежащем типа брат с сестрой" - "Predicates with sentences of the type brother and sister."

Re: More Special Rules - Spot the Rule!

[freiburg234.livejournal.com]

Correction - "Predicates with subjects of the type brother and sister."

Re: More Special Rules - Spot the Rule!

[ytzin.livejournal.com]

oh! i`m afraid that my english is too bad to explain it:(