Keyboards (a little off topic maybe...sorry :P)

[lady-of-the-sea.livejournal.com]

Привет!
Finally! I got a Russian keyboard system that works, hooray!
Now, it came with stickers for the keys. It'll be a LOT easier for me to use the phonetic system, but I'm worried that the standard Russian system is something I should learn...
Are there any practical reasons why I should learn the Standard Russian keyboard instead of the phonetic?
спасибо :)

ETA: спасибо, everyone!

Comments

[girl-tenor.livejournal.com]

What brand did you get, and does it work with either PC or Mac? I might be interested in the future.

[lady-of-the-sea.livejournal.com]

It's from www.fingertipsoft.com, and it's called Cyrillic Support 2000. Mine's a PC, but I'm not sure if they have MAC programs. :)

[khathi.livejournal.com]

Well, the reason is that Latin keyboard was developed when typewriters were sluggish, and letter levers often got caught, so layout (initially alphabetic) was modified to move more often used letters to the sides, to slow down typing speed a bit -- ad then everybody simply got used to it. Cyrillic keyboard was created several years later, when typewriter designs improved, so there was no need to slow it down, so after coulpe of years of phonetic layout following Latin one, a new layout was devised, facilitating faster typing instead by grouping often used letters in the center.
So the difference is that original Cyrillic reyboard has intrinsically higher typing speed, especially if you learn to blind-type. Another reason it that if you ever have to use a genuine Cyrillic keyboard, it will be a huge nuisance after you get used to typing Russian texts with phonetic one. I usually blind-type (well, not exactly, but close), so even small changes in layout from one keyboard brand to other -- like different positions of commas and slashes -- are really irritating.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

Well, in fact, all modern OSes have a complete cyrillic support without any need for external software, so I'm afraid that you got ripped off. ^_^ I'm not sure about US editions, but my Japanese XP Home, which I got with my notebook, had it built in from the start, I had only to activate it in Control Panel. MacOS has it as well, IIRC.

[zorazora.livejournal.com]

My US XP Home also had it built in from the start (as did my Mac OSX).

[khathi.livejournal.com]

Well, I've checked the website -- they got a set of fancy utilities and fonts bundled there, but all these (or, at least, analogs) are available either for free or as shareware, so I really don't see the reason for such hefty pricetag. Keyboard stickers cost just about $1, there are literally TONS of free font and utilities in the internets, and, in fact, nobody used accented characters in Russian anyway...

[miram.livejournal.com]

If you're planning to visit Russia, you won't find computers with the phonetic keyboard over there. (Or, at least, I've never seen any.)

[lady-of-the-sea.livejournal.com]

Whoa, I wasn't expecting such an extensive response, thank you :D
I'll probably go with the standard then, since I am hoping to visit Russia someday and I'd hate to be stranded :)

[lady-of-the-sea.livejournal.com]

Ok, thanks! Standard it is, then :)

[khathi.livejournal.com]

I think that would be better.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

I've seen, actually, but it was Yamaha MSX-II ones, -- a pretty obscure 8-bit systems, barely known ourside Japan and Brazil, which were, however, purchased in numbers in Soviet time for schools. And also couple of other 8-bit systems, both domestic and imported, used it, but now they are limited to retro-computer hobbyists, and definitely not mainstream.

[svyatogor.livejournal.com]

you're right. I'm using phonetic layout myself, cause my first laptop didn't have a russian keyboard and I coundn't find any stickers at that time. so i kind of learned to blind type in phonetic layout and it's *really* hard to switch to normal layout.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

There is a place in Moscow, called Savyolovsky Computer Market - a couple of hundreds of computer stores under one roof (in a former industrial facility near Savyolovsky train terminal.) Believe me, you won't find a phonetic keyboard in any of those stores, and they sell dozens and dozens of different keyboards, from old-fashioned 101 keys to soft flexible Bluetooth ones.

[soidisantfille.livejournal.com]

I have the exact same problem; I, too, have used a phonetic keyboard for too long and in Russia, I felt like a fool for having to look at the keys.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

Do they sell any of 20-year-old 8-bit machines? I mean, Yamaha MSX, ZX Spectrum, Atari 2600 and so on? ^_^ I was talking about these ones, not modern keyboards.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

I did one simple thing in this case -- I just wrote the letters on the keys by pencil, and renewed these marks each couple of days. After one or two weeks I just didn't need them anymore, as I memorized the layout by mescle memory and could always correct myself by Latin markings.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Well, they used to have a small store that called itself Computing Museum - they had all kinds of Spectrums, Commodores, BIKs (Soviet analog to Spectrum,) the very first Mac, the 086 PC, etc. I don't find that store there anymore, though. I guess they went out of business.

[katiroma.livejournal.com]

Well, as a Russian, I'm used both to Cyrillic layout (when typing in Russian), and to the Latin one, "QWERTY" (for typing in English). For me, there's no problem with different layouts, where phonetic equivalents are assigned to different keys. I don't think that two different layouts would mess up in your head or motorics memory or whatever it is.
Besides, with phonetic system phonetic equivalents are not always available. For example, I have no idea which cyrillic letters correspond to Q or W in such a system? I think, if this correspondence is not evident (like Я for Q or Щ for W), it will be confusing. Certainly, one can get used to it and learn all the irregularities of this system, but if someday you would have to switch to standard layout, you'd need to learn everything from scratch and re-train.

[olegmmiller.livejournal.com]

How I learned the standard keyboard is to not bother with stickers at all. then when it was time to type I would type three lines:
йцукенгшщзхъ
фывапролджэ
ячсмитьбю.
These are basically: qwertyuiop[]\ etc.

after a while I stopped typing the three lines, and just did hunt and peck: ie
я не знаю might be typed by: я не (don't know where 'з' is)йцкенгшщз delete a bunch, and retype the 'з' and finish up. It can be frustrating to not be proficient, but when there are no stickers, you cannot hunt and peck, and your fingers will remember where the keys are better, if you stay in the home row positions.

[shariperkins.livejournal.com]

If you learn to use the standard keyboard, you will be much better off. It doesn't take too long to get a good feel for it, especially if you do one of two things - 1) put the stickers on the keys or 2) put a graphic version of the keyboard on your computer screen so you can look at it instead of down at your fingers.

Since they phonetic keyboard is phonetic, you won't have trouble figuring out how to use it when it is your only option. However, if you only use the phonetic, you'll be seriously hampered when you only have the standard layout.

It's much better to learn correctly the first time.

[ex-eugzol340.livejournal.com]

my favourite - Stamina (www.stamina.ru) =) It has both Russian and English interface =)

[ex-eugzol340.livejournal.com]

Sorry, this link (http://www.stamina.ru).

And here is download page - http://www.stamina.ru/download.htm (http://www.stamina.ru/download.htm).

And the direct link to installer - http://stamina.ru/files/StaminaSetup.exe (http://stamina.ru/files/StaminaSetup.exe).

[pashator.livejournal.com]

+1

The speed of typing is the main concern here ...

[girl-tenor.livejournal.com]

Thanks! =)

[nbuwe.livejournal.com]

I've been using яверты since very early 90's (native speaker, living in Russia). Don't listen to people who tell you you must learn йцукенг just because it's supposed to be "the one true way". Not unless you plan to use mechanical typewriter a lot, or you want to touch-type russian at a mind-boggling speeds.

With laptops beeing the rule rather than an exception, why would you *care* about how other people configure their keyboards?

The 0.00001% of time that I actually have to use йцукенг, well - I can cope. It's just not worth my time to re-learn йцукенг. (re-learn - as I used to use jcukeng/йцукенг (not qwerty/йцукенг) in mid 80s).

I use the *exact* same layout in emacs on my vt220 which just doesn't do 8-bit input at all (well, I guess nobody here own or even ever saw a vt220, so count that as just me showing off :), X11, Windows and MacOS.

It might be awkward for fast touch-typing, but, hell, it works good enough for me, and I have better ideas of how I can use my time than to relearn བའེམགཔ again. Took me just about an hour to make a clone of emacs phonetic layout for Windows. Surely less than it would take me to go back to йцукенг.