Etymology question

[gland.livejournal.com]

I seem to remember someone saying that the "-sya" at the end of passive verbs like "nravitsya" came from a shortened version of reflexive pronoun "sebya". Is my mind playing tricks on me or is this actually true?

Edit: Thanks so much for the quick responses!

Comments

[belacane.livejournal.com]

I've never heard that... but if it's true, that's facinating!

[capricosha.livejournal.com]

You're right, '-ся' ending was derived from 'себя' ('self')

[spiderhood.livejournal.com]

Even if your mind is playing tricks, this time it's absolutely right - "-ся" is indeed a shortened version of "себя". Of course, in the words that were shortened a long time ago, you cannot just go and replace it. For example: "мыться" = "мыть себя" = "wash oneself", but "улыбаться" ain't "улыбать себя", 'cause the verb "улыбать" does not exist. Well, it is used occasionally in internet jargon, but you won't find it in the dictionary. The same goes for "нравиться". Some words were never meant that way directly: e.g., "рисоваться" means "to show off", not "to draw oneself" (= "рисовать себя").

[dasboot.livejournal.com]

its actually true

[gland.livejournal.com]

Sweeeet

[trepang.livejournal.com]

the similar thing exists in many languages. e.g., in spanish, мыться (to have a wash) would be "lavarse' (lavar + se: to wash + oneself).

[belacane.livejournal.com]

kind of like тебя seems to sometimes be said quickly as тя.... *wink*

[philena.livejournal.com]

Actually, it's not from a shortened version of "себя" but rather it is the reflex of the original accusative form of the reflexive pronoun, which was "seN," where "eN" is a front nasal vowel. In Russian, the front nasal vowel became я and cliticized to the verb, resulting in -ся

[spiderhood.livejournal.com]

...yet it's never written this way. Perhaps in a couple of hundred years... ;)

[ex-pelicano906.livejournal.com]

Yes, true. Compare with polish "sie", written as the separate word.

[temcat.livejournal.com]

Well, not always. When "-ся" can be separated (unlike say шin the verb "улыбаться"), it can also mean:

1) Mutual action (do something to/with each other)

Целоваться = to kiss (each other)
Драться = to fight (with each other)

2) (Dunno how to characterize this case - possibly repetitive action?)

Кусаться = bite - as in: "This dog bites."

[alamar.livejournal.com]

I would say that улыбать begins to exist as a word lately :) "Улыбнуло", "Ну ты меня улыбаешь".

[spiderhood.livejournal.com]

Somehow I feel like I have already mentioned this.

[gland.livejournal.com]

Mmm-mmm..... show me how cliticisation works again?

[nbuwe.livejournal.com]

Not only accusative ся, but also dativ си, and genetive се.

[solnyxo.livejournal.com]

oh my god!!!!! its so nice, that another people learn my language - russian!!!! very nise, really.

[gland.livejournal.com]

Russian is a pleasure to learn, and understanding Kino, Dostoevsky and Cheburashka in their native tongues makes it all worthwhile.