Фонологические вопросы / Phonological questions

[kasak.livejournal.com]

I have a question to everyone here about the letter /ч/. If we're talking IPA, it is represented as [tʃ^j]. But where my question comes in is what is the difference in pronunciation between [tʃ^j] and [tɕ]? To me, the Russian /ч/ sounds just like the Polish /ć/ or the Belorusian /ць/. Are these actually different sounds entirely? The [tʃ] is palatalized, and since it's a postalveolar fricative, adding palatalization to it makes it alveo-palatal, or so it seems to me. If anyone can tell me whether or not the Russian /ч/ is actually the same sound as these other langauges, I'd appreciate it.

Another question I have is regarding the /й/. In some texts, I've seen it listed as the fricative [ʝ] and in others, it's simply the approximant [j]. If someone could inform me whether or not the /й/ is a consonant or a semi-vowel, I'd appreciate that, too.

Большое спасибо!

Comments

[nat-bton.livejournal.com]

the Russian /ч/ - is a different sound to the Polish /ć/ or the Belorusian /ць/...best way to make sure you pronounce it right is to associate it to the sound of both /ch/ in 'church'. the sound is the exact pronunciation to the letter concerned.

not sure about /й/ being a consonant or a semi-vowel...sorry...

[freedomcry.livejournal.com]

I remember something about there being two allophones of /й/, a "stronger" one at the beginning of a word or after a consonant, and the other in syllable codas... I'm not sure this is exact but after reading that, I did notice those subtle differences in my own pronunciation.

[ijona-tihaja.livejournal.com]

alanov is right. There are two allophones of /й/. For example in the word /май/ /й/ is pronounced like a semi-vowel. But it is a consonant and in other positions it is pronounced like a consonant. It reminds the english /j/, but there is a slight difference: /й/ is more noisy, because tongue is risen a bit higher.

[ekeme-ndiba.livejournal.com]

If we're talking IPA, it is represented as [tʃ^j]. But where my question comes in is what is the difference in pronunciation between [tʃ^j] and [tɕ]? To me, the Russian /ч/ sounds just like the Polish /ć/ or the Belorusian /ць/. Are these actually different sounds entirely?

These are different sounds, consider difference between English "sh" and Spanish "s". Pronouncing "ч" like Polish "ć" or White Russian "ць" will be considered as lisping.

Another question I have is regarding the /й/. In some texts, I've seen it listed as the fricative [ʝ] and in others, it's simply the approximant [j].

Two replies above have already covered this issue, but keep in mind that in fast speech [j] can replace syllable-opening [ʝ]. It must not be always as aggressive as palatalized Greek gamma in "γε"/"γι".

[monarchistka.livejournal.com]

>the difference in pronunciation between [tʃj] and [tɕ]?

The second one ([tɕ]) sounds more like the Belarusian /ч/ (it's less palatalized or not palatalized at all), than like the Russian /ч/ (which IS palatalized even before such vowels as [а][o][у]). So the Russian [ч] is [tʃj].

As for the the Belarusian /ць/ - I'm not sure about the IPA but it would be [tsj] (strongly palatalized), while the Russian /ц/ is mostly [ts].

[ekeme-ndiba.livejournal.com]

The second one ([tɕ]) sounds more like the Belarusian /ч/

White Russian "ч" is [tʃ] and it never gets palatalized (as well as [r]).

[kasak.livejournal.com]

Спасибо всем за помощь!

[padruka1988.livejournal.com]

I have a question... Do people really say большое спасибо?? I've never heard that! Only спасибо большое. Given that it's Russian, it probably doesn't matter as syntax is a lot simpler than in English.

[kasak.livejournal.com]

Eh, I use both, and there really isn't a reason why I'll change them up. I think it's mostly a personal stylistic choice in which to say. If someone could refute me, or back me up, that'd be great.

[madrumos.livejournal.com]

hmm...i've taken a lot of russian and a little polish, so can someone help clarify? this whole discussion regarding ch-sounds has me intrigued. i know some IPA, but not enough to fully grasp the subtleties of these differences.

what are the distinctions between:
russian ч
polish ć
polish cz

to my mind/ear, ć and ч are equivalent, whereas cz is a 'hard' ch sound that russian lacks. taking a stab, i would place the english 'ch' inbetween ч and cz (just like the english 'sh' is in between ш and щ)

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

спасибо большое = большое спасибо.
Nuff said :)

[monarchistka.livejournal.com]

I agree - the word order in this sentence doesn't matter.

[http://users.livejournal.com/bc_/]

It's close to how I hear those sounds. But Polish ć is often described as true palatal, which Russian ч is not.