Question

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Is there a Russian equivalent to the phrase "to speak beyond the grave?"

Also, if one were speaking about Japan, and how the West opened it up, how does one say открыть Японию without making it sound that they discovered Japan as opposed to opening it up?

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

It is not very clear (to me, at least), what exactly you mean by opening it up. Could you elaborate a little?

[http://users.livejournal.com/_christine/]

In American schools, they teach us that Japan was an isolated country without very many international ties, and then it was "opened", or that the West initiated trade and diplomacy with it and so the isolation ended.

I think that is what the OP is referring to.

[gera.livejournal.com]

Is there a Russian equivalent to the phrase "to speak beyond the grave?"

"Говорить с того света"
Not as elegant, but fits the purpose.

if one were speaking about Japan, and how the West opened it up

opened it up ~ способствовал открытости,
something like that.
The noun открытость has the required meaning. The verb открыть doesn't work here.

[moai-s.livejournal.com]

I think that the sentence, say, "The great books/maniscripts/ speak beyond the grave"
may be translated as "Рукописи не горят".

[oryx_and_crake]

Isn't it better to say that Japan opened up to the West? The West "opening up" Japan sounds like a forceful act akin to rape. (Not that it is related to the original question, of course.) Getting closer to the point, I don't think there is a fitting set phrase in Russian.

[oryx_and_crake]

I don't think that способствовал открытости is a good fit. It gives the idea that the process was performed by Japan, and the West just "assisted". However, "the West opened up Japan" means that the West played an active role, and Japan a completely passive one.

[khathi.livejournal.com]

It should sound like a forceful act, because it was. The term "gunboat diplomacy" describes exactly that event -- opening Japan up.

[agneliz.livejournal.com]

Maybe it's better to say "Запад положил конец изоляции Японии".

[gera.livejournal.com]

Agree, but it's hard to find a better verb that sounds good with открытость.

[oryx_and_crake]

I like that version.

[maceochi.livejournal.com]

There is the noun phrase открытии Японии, so why not the verb открыть Японию?

[moai-s.livejournal.com]

It's OK "открыть Японию".
I wonder why he says that "to discover Japan" is opposed to "opening it up"?

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Because doesn't открыть страну means to discover a country? That is, that country was never known before and someone found it? If so, then that would be the wrong interpretation, as the Westerners who came to Japan knew it existed, but they forcibly opened up its ports for international trade using, as khathi above mentioned, "gunboat diplomacy," pretty much threatening them with war.

[oryx_and_crake]

You are right, открыть only means discover and does not convey the meaning of opening up at all.

[moai-s.livejournal.com]

Кажется понял:
1) to discover - to find a country which has never been known before
2) to open it up - to find the country which was disouvered earlier?

If so, then
1) to discover - открыть страну
2) to open it up - войти в страну figuratively, eg "Они вошли в страну в 19-м веке" - "They has opened it up as far back as 19th century".