Тот, кто vs. Тот, который

[wolfie-18.livejournal.com]

Can someone please give me a slap to the face as to when I'm supposed to use one over the other? In my essay that was recently corrected (Thank you guys sooo much, btw!)))), I have

"Вспомним, что величайшие в мире люди это те, которые занимались одной или двумя вещами."
and later I had
"...мы должны, нет, обязаны превратиться в кого-то, которым гордились бы наши предки и потомки."
which was corrected to
"мы должны, нет, обязаны превратиться в кого-то, кем гордились бы наши предки и потомки."

My question is - WHYYY!? Oy, vey what a headache.

Also, because quite a lot of corrections were made, I ended up writing another paragraph so fill up the 2-page limit. Could someone check that for me, please?

В конце концов, талант нужен всем по эволюционным причинам. Пусть Обломов лежит на диване, никто не выйдёт замуж него. Это называется «естественный отбор». Если все женщины выходили замуж за Обломовов, культура и искусство, всё прекрасное в жизни, вымрут. И за ними это мы стоим в такой очереди.

Comments

[oryx_and_crake]

May I do some nitpicking?

Те, кто купили эту посудомоечную машину, не пожалели об этом
I am not sure that "те, кто купили" is correct

Вспомним, что величайшие в мире люди - это те, которые занимались одной или двумя вещами
Вспомним, что величайшие в мире люди - это те, кто занималиcя одной или двумя вещами

You need a dash in both sentences and I am pretty sure that те, кто занимались is wrong.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

>>I am not sure that "те, кто купили" is correct
This usage is correct according to Terence Wade, A Comprehensive Russian Grammar, published by Blackwell, Oxford UK & Cambridge USA, published at 1992, Section 123.4.iii
page 131.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

Look, I'll try to scan the relevant section in next few days (no promises though), I think we can all benefit from reading and/or dscussing it.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

The dash thingy - agreed.

As for занимались/занимался, let me quote Wade. The section is quite long I'll give you only the relevant part.

===[Start Cut]===

When, however, there is a plural antecedent (все or те), кто may take either a singular or plural verb: Все, кто пришёл/пришли на собрание, голосовали за меня. 'Everyone who came to the meeting voted for me.', cf:

Среди тех, кто остался, был Иван Карлович, наш сосед
(Rybakov)
Among those who remained was Ivan Karlovich, our neighbour

and

Те из нас, кто читали стихотворение, были в восторге
Those of us who read the poem were delighted
===[Endt Cut]===

I also looked up Cambridge "Using Russian, a guide to contemporary usage" by Derek Offord, and a few other books, but was unable to locate a related discussion.

[oryx_and_crake]

I deeply distrust non-native speakers in such subtle matters. Can you look up what Rosenthal says on this topic? Среди тех, кто остался sounds fine to me, and Те из нас, кто читали sounds completely weird.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

I was debating looking it up in Rozental, and I thought that it would take to long to find the correct place. I will try and do it tommorow though, now that you've asked.

As for distrust. I read the whole section about usage of который/какой/кто in Wade and I have to admit that there was some (small) parts of the text that didn't make much sense for me. (Such as an assertion that the choice between кто and который may be based on the gender of the releated noun/pronoun. The examples that they were giving while were correct on their own, didn't match the big picture.) So I can see where you are coming from with this distrust. On the other hand people who wrote these books spend lots ann lots of time studying the subject and they are very learned and one has to respect that.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

Oh and another thing. A plural verb as given in examples above sounds a bit unnatural to me too, so I understand you here as well. I just know from prior experince that not everything that sounds wierd is wrong.

For example: "В этой связи" is now a complete and total norm mentioned I think even in the reference dictionary for tv news readers. Nevertherless, i would never say or write that, I'd use "В связи с этим" instead.

Back to our case - this usage may be something that was acceptable some years ago and now is dying out.

[oryx_and_crake]

Yes, that might be the case too (dying out). For example, I have seen combinations like "вы женат" and "вы холост" in older books that sound completely weird to a modern ear.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

This is a quote that I found in an (unrelated) chapter of Валгина Н.С.,Розенталь Д.Э.,
Фомина М.И.,Современный русский язык: Учебник / Под редакцией Н.С. Валгиной. - 6-е изд., перераб. и доп.

This is from Alexander Kuprin, Poedinok: Должно быть, все те, кто наблюдали эту сцену извне, поняли ее опасное значение. This is year 1905. So this is difinitely something that at some time was a literary norm.

[zespri.livejournal.com]

Some more quotations.

Eduard Uspensky, Лжедмитрий второй настоящий. 1999. В Московском государстве все устроено так, что преимущественно богатеет царская казна да еще те, кто так или иначе служат ей и пользуются казною.
Josef Brodsky. Исаак и Авраам. 1963. То был обычный скрип рассохшегося дерева, чей возраст дает возможность самому поскрипывать, твердя, что ни к чему ни те, кто вызвать этот звук могли б, ни тот, кто мог расслышать этот возглас.
Josef Brodsky. Венецианские строфы. 1982. Те, кто бессмертен, пахнут водорослями, отличаясь от вообще людей, голубей отрывая от сумасшедших шахмат на торцах площадей.
Michail Bulgakov. Мастер и Маргарита. 1934. Сверху Маргарите те, кто находились непосредственно под нею, казались безногими.
Michail Bulgakov. Белая гвардия. 1924. Те, кто бегут, те умирать не будут, кто же будет умирать?
Ivan Efremov. Час быка. 1968. Учитель молча наклонил голову. - А те, кто вернулись?


I rest my case. =)

[oryx_and_crake]

I still don't like it and won't use it :-P

[zespri.livejournal.com]

To wrap up:
- Usage of singular verb in this case is mainstream
- Usage of plural verb is also possible, however much less frequent
- For a lerner of russian it's advisable, to always use singular in this case, this way you'll never go wrong, and don't have the risk to sound "unnatural", and in most cases you will sound unnatural if you use plural here.
- However it's good to be aware the plural usage, because it can occure in literature, even well known writers use it when they see fit.