Two related questions about gender.

[kutsuwamushi.livejournal.com]

This was kicked off by the last post.

1. In linguistics, nouns are said to have natural or grammatical gender (this is not an exclusive "or"). Natural gender refers to the actual sex of the object, and grammatical gender refers to the class of a noun. What grammatical gender are words like папа? They are declined like feminine nouns, but given masculine modifiers. And is there a term for this?

2. Are there any instances where nouns that are naturally feminine appear masculine? I've only seen it the other way around.

[Edit] Thank you for all your quick responses!

Comments

[katenok.livejournal.com]

1. In linguistics, nouns are said to have natural or grammatical gender (this is not an exclusive "or"). Natural gender refers to the actual sex of the object, and grammatical gender refers to the class of a noun. What grammatical gender are words like папа? They are declined like feminine nouns, but given masculine modifiers. And is there a term for this?

The rules of Russian grammar don't hold for 100% of the words. папа is masculine that grammatically behaves like feminine. It is like irregular verbs in English - you have to remember them and that's all.

[oblomov-jerusal.livejournal.com]

I think usual linguistical description is to say that папа is a masculine noun belonging to 1st declension. 1st declension includes nouns ending in а or я, most of which are feminine, but some are masculine.

[kutsuwamushi.livejournal.com]

This runs contrary to what I was taught in class: masculine and neuter nouns belong to the 1st declension, and feminine nouns belong to the 2nd declension (more or less).

Do linguistics textbooks treat this differently than Russian textbooks, or what?

[nale.livejournal.com]

AFAIR, there is a difference between "a secondary school way" of defining declensions and "a college way" - it has nothing to do with grammar itself, it's just a tradition.

In secondary school nouns like мама, папа, etc. belong to the 1st declension, and стол, конь, etc. - to the 2nd. In grown-up grammar *lol* - vice versa. :o)

[oblomov-jerusal.livejournal.com]

Somebody has already answered. I guess we are using different numberings of declensions.

[wattson.livejournal.com]

Папа - feminine ending, but masculine gender (one of the very few words)
Agreement is determined by the following algorithm:

If the noun has (natural) gender, assign feminine agreement for feminine nouns and masculine gender for masculine nouns;
If the noun does not have gender, assign agreement as follows:
Masculine agreement to Declension I nouns ending on a consonant;
Neuter agreement to Declension I nouns ending on o or e and Declension III nouns ending on мя;
Feminine agreement to Declension II nouns and Declension III nouns ending on soft consonants;
Plural agreement to Declension IV nouns.
If the noun is indeclinable, assign Neuter agreement.

Russian Agreement Patterns
Attributive Agreement
Dec. I, consonant милый стул a nice chair
Dec. I, vowel милое письмо a nice letter
Dec. II милая книга a nice book
Dec. III, consonant милая дверь a nice door
Dec. IV милые чернила nice ink
Indeclinable милое пальто a nice overcoat

Predicate Agreement
Dec. I, consonant Стул милый. The chair is nice.
Dec. I, vowel Письмо милое. The letter is nice.
Dec. II Книга милая. The book is nice.
Dec. III, consonant Дверь милая. The door is nice.
Dec. IV Чернила милые. The ink is nice.
Indeclinable Пальто милое. The overcoat is nice.

Verbal Agreement
Dec. I, consonant Стул упал . The chair fell.
Dec. I, vowel Письмо упало. The letter fell.
Dec. II Книга упала. The book fell.
Dec. III, consonant Дверь упала. The door fell.
Dec. IV Чернила упали. The ink fell.
Indeclinable Пальто упало. The overcoat fell.

[oblomov-jerusal.livejournal.com]

If the noun is indeclinable, assign Neuter agreement. Official rules say that indeclinable кофе is masculine, although many speakers treat it as neuter.

[ataltane.livejournal.com]

Are there any instances where nouns that are naturally feminine appear masculine? I've only seen it the other way around.

In Russian, or is it generally possible. I'm not sure about Russian, but it's quite common in other languages. For example, German and Irish. OTOH, there are languages where thins can't happen (like French, I think)

[ataltane.livejournal.com]

... there should be a '?' after my first sentence :)

[kutsuwamushi.livejournal.com]

Well, yeah, in Russian. ;)

I'm aware of 3rd declension nouns, but as far as I know, those are all inanimate. And they're just odd, anyway.

[oblomov-jerusal.livejournal.com]

дочь, мать, свекровь, many biblical feminine names are of 3rd declension (although мать and дочь have non-standard declination pattern).

[kasak.livejournal.com]

I don't know of any instances where feminine nouns appear masculine, but I am aware of one off the top of my head where a masculine noun is neuter.

Морозко.

That's the name of the Russian version of Jack Frost. It's neuter, but obviously refers to a male, since Морозко is not an "it."

Just something more strange for you to think about.

[wolk-off.livejournal.com]

Морозко seems to be more Ukrainian-styled. Ukrainian last names are like this: кто - Петренко, кого - Петренка, кому - Петренке, and he's still a "he".