Марсово Поле

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Are the endings on "Марсово" the same as on a фамилия like Иванов?

Марсово
Маросова
Марсову
Марсово
Марсовым
Марсовом

Is it the same with Пулково and Шереметьево, are they all regular?

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Comments

[dair-spb.livejournal.com]

> Are the endings on "Марсово" the same as on a фамилия like Иванов?
Your options looks correct.

Definitely not the same with Пулково which is undeclensable (am I correct inventing such a word?).

Not sure about Шереметьево, let's wait for some Moscowites :-)

[karakal.livejournal.com]

а та звезда над Пулковым висит (http://russianeurope.ru/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=34&Itemid=60) :)

[dair-spb.livejournal.com]

My bad, really.
Thanks for the notice.

Never thought that I should say "за Пулковым" instead of "за Пулково". Sounds weird to me but all Wikipedia articles about Пулково, Пулковская обсерватория and the like prove your answer.

[racoonbear.livejournal.com]

"... sounds weird..." - greetings, new generation!
25 years ago "за Пулково" sounded weird.

[dair-spb.livejournal.com]

I'm just 5 years younger than you so I'm not sure I'm that new generation ;-)

[racoonbear.livejournal.com]

My friend who is only 3 years yonger than me says "пофиг" and I say "по фигу". So, the watermark is somewhere between us )

[icamel.livejournal.com]

Geographic names originally were declinable. It is a scientific and military tradition to not to decline such names to avoid confusion.

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

Thank you for the explanation! Interesting!

[janelight.livejournal.com]

I live in St. Petersburg. My advice - never say "За Пулковым", THIS would sound weird.

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

I believe the de-facto norm *today* is над Пулково, над Шереметьево. Google agrees. Nabokov lived in emigration, cut off from the changing language. Emigrants tend to conserve the norm.

I still use the form Магомет, for example. ^) Well, it's a pose in my case, since I am not that much cut off (long live the internet!)

[karakal.livejournal.com]

Над Пулково is a colloquial -- and illiterate so far -- form.
If the question is about speaking "on the street," your observations are correct.
If it's about literary language, Пулково, Иваново, Парфеново etc are all declinable.

[nof-nof.livejournal.com]

Oh lol. And who decides what is the norm and literary language???
Declinable???
Ok, let's bless Academic Grammar with such stupid rules like
2) Если населенный пункт назван собственным именем известного лица: около Репино (назв. поселка под Ленинградом), недалеко от Лермонтово (назв. небольшого города около Пензы).

[racoonbear.livejournal.com]

Here in Nizhny Novgorod region "в Сормове" (not "в Сормово") and "поесть супа" (not "поесть суп") was a norm till ~1995.

[nof-nof.livejournal.com]

which contradicts "literary language", by the way
http://rusgram.narod.ru/1216-1231.html#1219

[karakal.livejournal.com]

Yes, they are.

And it's the same with Пулково and Шереметево. I'm expecting strong objections, though :)

[nof-nof.livejournal.com]

No.
Consider Пушкин (a surname) and Пушкино (a town).

In the prepositional case, it will be
о Пушкине (a man, a surname)
but о Пушкино (a place)

if Марсово is an attribute used in the collocation, we speak about it as на Марсовом поле
even with ellipsis it is used as an adjective, e.g. Мы сидели на Марсовом.

if Марсово is a name of a village or like and is used independently, I think that the more correct usage is о Марсово / о Марсове
Variation is observed in colloquial language, but it seems that indeclinable neutral forms like в Купчино, в Пулково, в Шереметьево are more widepread now

[nof-nof.livejournal.com]

Actually, the situation with so-called possessive adjectives like Марсов, отцов and the surnames like Иванов is not an easy aspect of our grammar. The surnames are actually nouns with some relics of etymological adjectival declination.

cf. http://rusgram.narod.ru/1216-1231.html#1217 - for nouns
and http://rusgram.narod.ru/1315-1341.html#1327 - for adjectives

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

To add to nof_nof, you list the cases correctly for the adjective, but the last name Иванов is not the same as the adjective Иванов. The first difference is the stress syllable.

Его фамилия ИванОв (His last name is Ivanov)
Это ивАнов велосипед (This is Ivanov's bicycle)

The last name case list is:

Иванов (stress goes to O in all cases)
Иванова
Иванову
Иванова
Ивановым
(об)Иванове

The adjective case list is

Иванов (stress goes to the first A)
Иванова
Иванову
Иванов велосипед, слугу Иванова
Ивановым
Иванове

There are last names than end at -o, but they have the only form and are not...what's the word? not changeable? Don't know the proper term in English.

Дурново
Недбайло

I believe, they are changeable in Urkrainian, though.

[nof-nof.livejournal.com]

the neutral nouns were actively declined in the prepositional case in the 18-19 centuries, actually :)
e.g.
Прибавим, что состояние атмосферы было особенно благоприятно для этих наблюдений, как в Пулкове, так и в некоторых других обсерваториях. [К. С. Веселовский. Отчет по физико-математическому и историко-филологическому отделениям Императорской Академии наук за 1862 год, читанный в публичном заседании 29 декабря того же года непременным секретарем академиком К. С. Веселовским (1862)]

But these cases are marginal nowadays, indeed.

[avoider.livejournal.com]

Это ивАнов велосипед (This is Ivanov's bicycle)

This is Ivan's bicycle, not Ivanov's

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

Oooops, my bad!

[igorborisov.livejournal.com]

Little notice:
"Это ивАнов велосипед" means "This is Ivan's bicycle".

[mithrilian.livejournal.com]

Of course. I do get careless...

[serpent-849.livejournal.com]

yeah.
and tbh even with marsovo i'd avoid using any case but the nominative, they just sound weird. i'd use остановка "марсово поле" or just ты где? - ну, тут марсово поле=) my usual thing to say when i'm having fun with my route and am on a trolley in an unfamiliar district:D (i don't mean i say i'm at marsovo pole but i tend to use the nominative if i have no clue where i am and just look out of the window the second i'm asked about this XDDD)

[nof-nof.livejournal.com]

"на Марсовом" - 134 entries in RNC, you're welcome (http://search.ruscorpora.ru/search.xml?mycorp=&mysent=&mysize=&mysentsize=&dpp=10&spp=50&spd=10&text=lexform&mode=main&sort=gr_tagging&lang=ru&nodia=1&req=%ED%E0+%CC%E0%F0%F1%EE%E2%EE%EC)

[serpent-849.livejournal.com]

sure, i just know i'd not use this form unless i really had to. perhaps it doesn't even sound weird (like над пулковым too), it just feels weird to use.

would you say над храпуновым? :)))

[janelight.livejournal.com]

У Марсова поля, рядом с Марсовым полем is quite valid.

[karakal.livejournal.com]

Whatever you can read here about Пулково or Шереметево, Марсово (in Марсово Поле) is always declinable:
Марсово Поле
Марсова Поля
Марсову Полю
Марсово Поле
Марсовым Полем
Марсовом Поле
and no matter if it's St. Petersburg or Paris.

And I lived on Mars Field (на Марсовом Поле) in St. Petrsburg for a decade :)

[serpent-849.livejournal.com]

oh lol i almost said "or moscow" and i needed the map to realize we have воронцово поле :D haven't been in that district for like forever...
equally cool (*to me), equally weird:)

[racoonbear.livejournal.com]

Congrats! You have landed right in the center of grammar battles!

[olydiagron.livejournal.com]

:-) That's why I turn to this community instead of a book, everything get's deeply analized here ;-).

I want to get a general picture of how people actually speak and write. The normative answer in my grammarbook (first edtion 1977) is not really enough... .-)

It' super interesting to follow your discussions!

[trilbyhat.livejournal.com]

Two remarks-
- We Russians do confuse cases every now and then, and "небо над ШереметевOм" is not going to surprise anyone here, although it is most definitely wrong.
- We also more and more often reduce declension in some instances (notably in numerals), and in some cases this is even considered acceptable. I believe complex numerals will become unchangeable in 10 to 20 years, and "подлетаем к Пулково, вылетаем из Пулково, летим над Пулково" is already acceptable (the formal interpretation is that here the word 'аэропорт' is omitted, so you don't have to bother about declining the name)