[identity profile] gnomygnomy.livejournal.com posting in [community profile] learn_russian
(edited spelling)

Hello, all! I have another question about usage. :)

So in this snippet, the two are talking about ice cream. I want to make sure I understand the cases at work in these responses, which appear to me to be elliptical.

1 Mom: что ты хочешь, чтобы мама тебе купила?
2 Kid: мороженое!
3 Mom: какое?
4 Kid: жёлтое.
5 Mom: а шоколадное?
6 Kid: и шоколадное хочу смешать .
7 Mom: а ещё что?
8 Kid: и с ним будет леденец рядом .
9 Mom: ага, ещё что?
10 Kid: ничё
11 Kid: и тебя мороженого!
12 Kid: и милы мороженое!

In line 2, мороженое is an elliptical response in accusative case. Is line 3 also accusative? And therefore line 4? And 5?

In line 11, I think the kid is saying "and ice cream for you!" I think the kid left out "для" in this sentence. This is sort of a minor question, but is there a significant difference between saying "это для тебя" vs "это тебе"?

In a completely separate part of the tape, the child is talking about an episode of a kids' show (Лунтик и его друзья, if you're wondering). In the story, a character dresses up as a ghost in order to frighten his friends. The kid in the recording says the friends run around scared, shouting, "спасение от привидения!" Is that an appropriate thing to shout? As opposed to something like, "спаси меня!" or "помоги! это привидение!"

Thank you for any insight you can provide!

Date: 2016-09-15 06:19 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zwilling.livejournal.com
I can say two things for sure:
1. Мороженое is spelled with one "н".
2. You are definitely better at Russian than some Russian-speaking kids :)

Date: 2016-09-15 07:44 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hyyudu.livejournal.com
No, it doesn't. Мороженное with 2 "н" is gerund (мороженное мясо, for example), and ice cream is written with 1 "н"

Date: 2016-09-15 08:08 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
мороженое мясо is also spelled with one н
замороженное мясо - with two

Date: 2016-09-15 08:37 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hyyudu.livejournal.com
Мороженое (adjective) мясо, but мороженное (gerund) мясо. Замороженное is also gerund.

Date: 2016-09-15 08:48 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
See Rosenthal, p.52-2
"В отглагольных прилагательных, образованных от бесприставочных глаголов несовершенного вида, пишется одно н, например: правленый, вяленый, жареный, варёный, мочёный, кипячёный, глаженый, кованый, кошеный, стриженый, стираный, ломаный, мощёный, плетёный, гружёный, плавленый, мороженый..."

Date: 2016-09-15 09:20 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hyyudu.livejournal.com
Ok, you're right. Two letters would be in "Мясо, мороженное в холодильнике" or something like this.

Date: 2016-09-15 08:03 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] zwilling.livejournal.com
Н/НН-regarding rules are a bit of pain in the ass, see the link in the thread below :)

You're welcome here!

One more checker to estimate

Date: 2016-09-15 11:49 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] lion-casserole.livejournal.com
.
http://www.gramota.ru/slovari/dic/?lop=x&bts=x&zar=x&ag=x&ab=x&sin=x&lv=x&az=x&pe=x&word=%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BE%D0%B5

http://www.gramota.ru/slovari/dic/?lop=x&bts=x&zar=x&ag=x&ab=x&sin=x&lv=x&az=x&pe=x&word=%D0%B7%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%BE%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%B6%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%BD%D1%8B%D0%B9

Date: 2016-09-15 06:23 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
First of all, мороженое as in ice-cream is spelled with one n, not to be confused with participles like замороженный.
Second, I think the child was just joking, saying: "And [I also want] you, frozen!"
Alternatively it might have been "тебЕ" - И тебе мороженого! - An ice cream for you, too.

"Спасение от привидения" sounds very strange. A natural thing to scream in this situation would be "спасите, привидение!" On the other hand, it could be anything as children say lots of things at this age, they are experimenting with language (see Korney Chukovsky's lovely book "От двух до пяти").

Date: 2016-09-15 07:30 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Because мороженный (and all possible variations) is also a word. It just does not mean ice-cream.
This is a very confusing issue that even many native speakers are not comfortable with. See p.52 here http://www.evartist.narod.ru/text1/34.htm

Date: 2016-09-15 08:52 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Yes, Rosenthal is a go-to reference in everything related to Russian grammar and punctuation.

Date: 2016-09-15 11:19 pm (UTC)
oryx_and_crake: (Default)
From: [personal profile] oryx_and_crake
Yes, Rosenthal is something like The Grammar Bible of the Russian grammar for native speakers. Whenever there is a dispute on something language-related, we start throwing snippets from Rosenthal at each other :-)
Edited Date: 2016-09-15 11:20 pm (UTC)

Date: 2016-09-15 07:48 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] hyyudu.livejournal.com
Probably kid has mistaken with cases. "И Милы мороженое" can mean "And Mila's ice cream (too)", i.e. she wants to eat both her own ice cream and Mila's. But maybe she wanted to say "И Миле мороженое", "And bring ice cream for Mila"

Date: 2016-09-15 08:29 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] karakal.livejournal.com
With no other context available, I would guess:

11 Kid: и тебе мороженого!
12 Kid: и Миле мороженое!

The cases for мороженое are ok in both sentences. But the kid's pronuciation is just what it is :)
Edited Date: 2016-09-15 08:30 pm (UTC)

Date: 2016-09-15 08:30 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] orie.livejournal.com
yes, in lines 3, 4 and 5 there's accusative

"спасение" is a noun derived from verb ("отглагольное существительное"), and here it looks as a normal sentence to me, with a touch of joke (kids are using this noun two make it sound like a small poem).

Date: 2016-09-15 08:31 pm (UTC)
From: [identity profile] orie.livejournal.com
I think he/she wants to say "и тебе мороженого, и миле мороженого", but he/she is not yet very confident with Russian cases

Date: 2016-09-17 05:08 am (UTC)
From: [identity profile] spiritrc.livejournal.com
This is not the first time you mention these child recordings and I keep wondering how old is the child? Sounds to me like you are trying to understand speech of a baby who is also just learning to talk. Is it so?

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